EU - in or out. Looking for useful facts and figures

[JayJay]

Whilst I would agree that the federal nature of the EU's development is not strictly to my taste, the subject was ,I thought, on previous referenda, and on that score, well we indeed did have one in 1975! Here's a thought, and from someone, like many, still undecided, if we vote "out" we are....out, full stop. If we vote "in" however, we can do the democratic bit, at a later date, and vote via our own government, which ever colour that might be, on whether to remain in, or not, should the future shape of 'Europe' not appeal to us at that time in the future, so no finality..... , worth considering?..Morrag

I think that is very unlikely Morrag. I think this is going to be our only chance to choose. If Labour are our next Gvt, Corbyn, although a long time Eurosceptic, has gone against his views to cement his position as their leader. He couldn't then promise the UK another referendum. Cameron, if he stays on after the referendum, will not go through this experience again for love nor money. If he resigns as leader of the Tories they would not want to call an election and probably do a Thatcher/Major scenario. So if a pro EU person became leader then still no new referendum and even if an anti EU person was chosen they still wouldn't be allowed to. They would have to stay the leader and still be the leader at the end of the Tories' 5th year of office and win a general election.

By this time at lot will have happened in the EU. It is likely we will have had the Euro pushed on us. The European Security Mechanism will be in place which allows the EU to build up a stash of cash (rainy day money) from its members and all required sums (and we are talking massive sums of money) have to be deposited within 7 days. No argument. This is an ongoing mechanism and the EU and its big wigs are clearly stated to be exempt from being responsible for any of this money! In other words, even if all the money disappeared they cannot be held responsible. More countries are going to need bailing out. Do you really believe we will be exempt from contributing to that money. That is why the EU needs us, our money. More poor countries are going to be welcomed to the EU. The time period Cameron stated is very unlikely. It will be much sooner. Read other sources and I don't just mean LEAVE documents. More poor countries who the EU will give much more money to than they will contribute to the EU.

There are so many changes coming down the EU pipeline that even as a member we will be unable to halt them and as a key contributing member, we will bear the brunt.

So Morrag, how you vote is up to you but please don't base how you vote in the hope you will get the chance to vote again in another referendum in the near future or even ever.
JJ 

[JayJay]

WE ARE THE ,,,little,,  PEOPLE, I,LL DO MY BEST TO VOTE  BUT IT WILL NOT MAKE ANY  DIFFERANCE TO ME  I WILL STILL BE    ,,,,,SCREWED,,  good job i,m  ending it all  

NO POINT IN CARRYING ON

No you won't and yes there is. Put a small bet on leaving the EU. The odds are still on remain but I think we will vote out.  That would help you out and cheer you up.   

[morrag]

Well, once again, and as if to support the diversity of feeling here, I didn't mention another referendum in the future, what I said is that , possibly!! a vote to remain removes the very definite finality of an exit, as ANY future government can exercise its constitutional authority, and vote down or remove the country from really onerous Euro Legislation, should they so wish, that's called democracy, I believe! so, more thought perhaps, and a little less rhetoric maybe?.....Morrag

[morrag]

Finally, from me anyway, at my age I'm pretty sure that this will be the last referendum I shall be around to vote in, at least on this subject, and regarding Leave or Stay information, I believe neither where produced from political bias or colour, I use my own reasoning, based on quantifiable stats. ...Morrag

[JayJay]

My apologies if I misunderstood you Morrag.
JJ 

[digger06]

it will get harder and harder in the future to ever manage to vote out, the eu are grabbing power at anever increasing rate, better to vote out, and consider going back in at a later date when the eu is settled, peacefull and happy, (which will never happen)

[BikerGran]

I just read this on Facebook - no idea who wrote it as the person who posted it had copied it, but I think it's one of the simplest and best explanations I've seen.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.
You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.
You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.
You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).
You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.
You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).
The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.
Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.
Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there. You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.
You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.
You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helpedgive UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.

[twisted]

yep, nail, head, hit it.
ok jay jay cheers i'll just use a biro then 

[Baychimp]

To Jay Jay if you want a good laugh pop on to Youtube and watch some of Nigel Farage's E U speech's. There are quite a lot of them. I'm sure he does it to wind the Fascist left members of the council up. A lot of them used to be old school, hard line,card carrying Communists. But then discovered money. Worth a giggle.

[Baychimp]

To suggest that some people on here are not thinkers and are swayed by political bias.rhetoric and scaremongering and can't coherently reason things out for themselves, is to say the least "Shabby". Statistic are Statistics and will only tell you what the people who compiled them want you to know.

[JayJay]

That was good BG, clearly written.

Baychimp, I have seen some of his speeches but my favourite is him questioning the appointment of Juncker as President of the European Commission. Farage certainly doesn't pull his punches.

Digger06, that is an alternative way to think about it but like you said, unlikely.

The debates on ITV should be interesting this week. Lets see if Cameron says the same thing regardless of what he was asked!     

Finally, I know this referendum is quite divisive across the UK and I know politics is normally a subject we keep away from on MMM but I have to say in this instance I think it has been helpful to talk about it and point each other to helpful information. That said, I don't want any of us to fall out over it and I hope everyone will still be 'MMM mates' afterwards.   
JJ 

[Baychimp]

Jay Jay my favorite him welcoming President Schultz

[JayJay]

Jay Jay my favorite him welcoming President Schultz

I'll look it up. 

[stinkey]

Just because somebody on here votes in or out wouldn't affect my feelings towards fellow monkies..I still think your all mad ( in a manky way of course ) and I think it's the best forum on the web..and we will all be fine

[BikerGran]

Spot on, Stinkey!