EU - in or out. Looking for useful facts and figures

[Mendalot]

Morning JJ,
There is no name or anything obvious on the leaflet to say who sent it, I just googled the address and find that it is from the offices of the Vote to leave campaign. 

[Plasticpig]

Some people dont like the Daily mail, but this morning they printed an
 article about the latest waste of taxpayers money, and half way down the page there is a rundown of the pros and cons.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527735/David-Cameron-faces-furious-Tory-backlash-10m-EU-propaganda-mailshot-household-country.html

[trev]

Was this what you have Trevor?

EU - in or out. Looking for useful facts and figures

EU - in or out. Looking for useful facts and figures

EU - in or out. Looking for useful facts and figures

              yep thats it,thanks.

[Rob54]

Gerald Nabarro was our MP when I was a teenager and yes he was all those things you said but he'd have got along pretty well with Dave and his cronies, he had the finances too and lived in a different world from the working plebs! - oh and he had a handshake like a wet fish, I've never forgotten that!

Hello BikerGran,

My only interest was in what he was saying against joining the Common Market. I know he had money, just like all his kind but it was the argument he put forward that I agreed with. When I saw the evidence of stockpiling and pouring milk down drains, ploughing crops under, I knew the Common Market was not for the common people but only a way of keeping prices artificially inflated to benefit the money boys.

As has been mentioned, the 'Butter Mountains’ were all sold off to the likes or Russia for pennies rather than sell it to the people that subsidised them via the CAP in the first place, we didn't benefit in anyway from the glut. As it was, the CAP really only benefited countries like France who had lots of small farmers and a farming industry that was ideal to milk the system and they did, hand over fist.

We have been the second largest contributor to this undemocratic dictatorship since we joined and have got very little in return, as a country, I don't include those who have grabbed their usual 'pound of flesh' from us as a whole, as they always do. Had the leaches within our system done their jobs and made sure we claimed for all the allowances that we were entitled to instead of leaving it to our farmers/businesses/industries/citizens to wade through all the red tape themselves, we would have fared better. The other countries help sort the various entitlements for their people but the lazy beggars in this country swing the lead all the time.

I am not a fan of the 'Wet fish' handshake either. It seems to be standard with many politicians though. I remember an ex-MP of mine, Peter Bottomly, was the same, another useless.............................I shan't say exactly what I think he is, to spare your blushes and my Mum told me never to swear in front of a lady.

All the Best,

Rob54.

[Rob54]

Which organisation did your pamphlet come from?

I've just read the Government is spending over 9 million sending every household a letter on the EU. I have had one from Leave but I haven't read it yet. On the ITV news web site there was a poll asking:

Should the Government spend £9.3m on the pro-Europe campaign?

NO is 91% as I write this. Anyone surprised?

Hello JayJay,

Well, it is only taxpayer's money, so it doesn't count, does it?

They are used to throwing our money away. It's a habit they just can't kick.

I am surprised it is only 91% for the NO vote.

Where is the connection for the vote?

In the interest of democracy I should like to add my vote, though it's a bit late as they have already spent it. Perhaps they should have a second poll asking if we think the Conservative party should re-pay the money from their own party funds. Now that I would like to see.

All the Best,

Rob54.

[JayJay]

If any of you feel strongly about this outrage then there is a petition on the gvt web site. People are signing at a rate of 5000 an hour and it already has over 100,000 signatures. On its way to the total number (500,000) who voted in the Common Market vote in 1975!

STOP CAMERON spending British taxpayers’ money on Pro-EU Referendum leaflets.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762

[JayJay]

To Rob54
The poll is currently down a bit from where this link takes you:

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-04-06/should-the-government-spend-9-3m-on-the-pro-europe-campaign/

[Baychimp]

Also in that link I saw that some expats who live abroad want to vote,and their case is being heard in the high court. But as in the Scottish referendum Scots living in England and Wales didn't get to vote on Scotland, so it should be for people who opt to live else where.

[Olds]

While the petition is not going to change anything, I signed it as a form of protest.
For Cameron to say that the leaflet represents the 'Governments point of view' is bizarre.
From what I have read, Cameron had to form a committee of pro EU ministers, who sat in secrecy, to give approval to produce and distribute the leaflet at the taxpayers expense. Other Conservative MPs knew nothing of this
This expenditure was never debated in the house as it would have been blocked.

[Rob54]

To Rob54
The poll is currently down a bit from where this link takes you:

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-04-06/should-the-government-spend-9-3m-on-the-pro-europe-campaign/

Hello JayJay,

Thanks for the link, will sign it asap.

I have already signed the main government one, in the early hour of this morning. I shall be emailing my MP Kelly Tolhurst as well, as per the option that was offered after my signing was confirmed. I will be explaining to her why her boss (Cameron) is onto a loser and that his explanations in the document are a joke.

In the pamphlet he opens with the ludicrous statement that EU membership brings 'economic security, peace and stability'. I shall remind her that when this country joined it was a major manufacturing one and now we assembly products for other countries (Japan/Nissan/Sunderland for instance). We have a vastly reduced workforce with many jobs going to workers from other EU countries. This may provide economic security to businesses that import their workers from the poorer parts of the EU whilst shunning the home workforce so as to maximise their profits but it does not do so for the British worker, who's standard of living has greatly diminished.

As far as the 'peace' is concerned, perhaps he is forgetting the war in the Balkan states with the 'ethnic cleansing' that took place, although looking at it from a more historic perspective, it could be said to be a precursor to our current and future predicament. It was based on the fear of the Islamic extreme factions that were trying to annex parts of the countries involved to create countries of their own or take over entire countries and make them Islamic. It could be viewed as a microcosm of what some are trying to be implemented now on a grander scale. Perhaps he has also forgotten the war that has been and is being fought on the streets of many of the EU countries. The killing of Lee Rigby, the attack on the French magazine office ‘Je Suis Charlie’, the ‘coffee house attacks’ in France, the recent bombing of the airport and railway, many attacks all over and he talks of peace. I have lost count of the number of times it has been revealed that those involved were on a ‘watch list’ or were known to the security forces (that’s an oxymoron if ever there was one, they provide security for no one). If the government spent time money and effort on targeting those who threaten us, instead of trying to criminalize and monitor the general public as a whole (the snooper’s charter anyone?), perhaps they would be able to stop some of the attacks. They still won’t even use ‘profiling’ to target those most likely to be a threat because of their misguided belief it would infringe the ‘civil rights’ of those they would need to monitor or check on (again, the snooper’s charter anyone?) or perhaps they don’t care about the civil rights of the indigenous people. They prefer to make all our lives a misery whilst wasting resources and effort by introducing ‘knee jerk’ and fake security measures that do nothing to address the problem.

The preposterous statement that it provides stability is discounted by what I have already written. If you couple this with the instability caused by ‘Hitler in a blonde wig’ as I saw her described, using the royal ’WE’ to invite as many as want to come to the EU and ‘WE’ (there’s that word again) will take care of them. It took her far too long to realise and admit she had dropped a ricket, by which time she has opened the floodgates and caused untold misery.
I think they are all running scared that if we vote to leave than the EU is doomed and their gravy train is over. From what I have read, so far Holland, France and even Germany want a referendum of their own. Hopefully we can finally prove to them that the EU is ‘A dead parrot’ and has been for some time.
Sorry to have gone on a bit but I found a new soapbox to replace my old, worn out one. That will teach you to prod me with a stick when I am trying to nap.

All the Best,

Rob54

[Rob54]

While the petition is not going to change anything, I signed it as a form of protest.
For Cameron to say that the leaflet represents the 'Governments point of view' is bizarre.
From what I have read, Cameron had to form a committee of pro EU ministers, who sat in secrecy, to give approval to produce and distribute the leaflet at the taxpayers expense. Other Conservative MPs knew nothing of this
This expenditure was never debated in the house as it would have been blocked.

Hello Olds,

It's strange that the government can use these 'underhand' methods. It appears to occur on a regular basis that they hold these little meetings where the chosen few are allowed to plot and scheme. It may be understandable at a time of war when it may be necessary to reduce the possibility of a leak or slowing the decision making process down but not in peace, as Cameron insists we have in his pamphlet. I thought that any such documentation is supposed to include valid points of for and against the proposed referendum and the government's position is to remain neutral. There is nothing stopping the Conservative party from producing their own pamphlet stating their viewpoint but it should be done at their own expense. The people have a right to expect an unbiased and informative document, not a dictat.

All the Best,

Rob54.

[JayJay]

Has everybody received their booklet from the Gvt telling us how good staying in the EU is for us? It made me angry because I can't understand how £9.3 million can be spent on a booklet that is very biased to staying in the EU and which purports to come from the Gvt when many representatives of said Gvt do not support that view. 

The waste of money is the worst thing though. DC argues that the Tories' manifesto included educating the people able to vote in the referendum about their choices. Well a partisan booklet does not do that. A booklet setting out the pros and cons of staying in the EU and also explaining the Gvt's plans if a Yes vote is delivered would have been more acceptable even though £9.3 million is a staggering cost but I suppose just sending out polling cards for a General Election is close to that figure. I know, let's get rid of parliament, use the money to give every household a computer and broadband and then let us all vote on everything! True democracy. Pity, but I don't think that would work either. 

I am sending my booklet back via second class post to DC saying I believe that he should be personally sanctioned as he gave permission for this partisan booklet to be produced and delivered at great expense to the taxpayer and not telling the truth about it being representative of the current Gvt.

He has used and is still using the so called voice of the Gvt to back staying in the EU when it should be left to the two groups chosen to represent each view.

Rather than the stories of doom and gloom if we leave, which are trying to put the fear of God into voters, I want to hear from the Gvt what their plans would be if the vote is Leave. They should be able to show that they and the Bank of England are prepared for such a vote.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for the day. That's why I also posted a joke, to show I do have a lighter side.
JJ

[digger06]

well camerons tellin us there may be war if we leave, what a w****r.......
I know brexit cant tell us exactly what will happen if we leave,but at least they are not blatantly lying like the in campaign and Cameron,,,
100 yrs ago he would have been killed for treason....
something to be said for the old way isn't there?

[Baychimp]

The daft thing is the last two wars were started by Megalomaniacs, who managed to usurp power in one country. being in the E.E.C wouldn't stop that.No more than the League of Nations which was founded after the First World War could stop the rise of Hitler and the Second World War.
I would like to think that Europe has enough sense now not to start another War. I'm getting really fed of this endless scaremongering.

[JayJay]

Nice to see some recent posts. Saved me going to look for it. 

I am definitely in the LEAVE the EU gang now. The bulls**t coming out of Cameron, Osborne and their cronies's mouths now to panic people into remaining is quite shocking. If they believed things would be so bad:
1-
The Gvt wouldn't have given us a choice in the first place - too dangerous to let us plebs decide
2-
Cameron, a few months ago, wouldn't have been willing to leave if he didn't get what he wanted at the EU (and didn't get anyway)

Below is a link to Hansard. It concerns the debate responding to the petition that over 200,000 people signed saying they were angry that Cameron had used over 9million of Taxpayers' money to produce a very biased leaflet to support us staying in the EU.

The debate is quite long but worth the read. It was interesting for me to see two 'local' MPs making some good arguments. The many MPs supporting leaving the EU used the debate to highlight the many questionable points that have been claimed by the Gvt. Not only in the leaflet but also those made since. Particularly hard for them to accept were the claims regarding WW1 and WW2. That people had died for a united Europe rather than the fact they died to free many European countries and protect the United Kingdom, seemed lost on Cameron.

There is a fair bit of humour in the debate which is very one sided due to hardly any Remain supporters being there. The Gvt minister who had to be there to answer for the Gvt was likened to St Sebastian tied to a tree being hit with many arrows! Another was whether we should expect the plagues of Egypt or the apocalypse if we were to leave the EU. Anyway have fun. I found it quite enlightening the way these MPs from different political parties managed to cover a lot of key areas by batting the floor to each other and providing information I hadn't heard before.

One more point, the bias of the Media is unbelievable. I cannot understand why more is not being done about that. It is not only sickening but quite scary. I know the Beeb has long been seen as biased but the rest of them too! 

JJ

https://hansard.digiminster.com/commons/2016-05-09/debates/1605098000001/EUReferendumLeaflet