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Author Topic: MSVA FRAME MODS  (Read 7689 times)
Bus Boy
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« on: September 19, 2013, 11:44:25 AM »

OK guys, just how much can you modify a bike frame before it's deemed as 'Radically Altered' by the DVLA and then in need of MSVA testing?

eg1....standard café racer mod to a 70's frame...fitting a rear seat /mudguard loop to the seat sub frame. Radical or not?

eg2....standard bobber mod to a 70's frame......cut and shut seat rails/rebend subframe uprights so as to move the rear shock mounts and therefore lower the stance of the rear end. Radical or not?

eg3....remove and replace headstock gussets on 70's frame to improve the appearance of not having nasty pressed steel showing on your bobber/café racer when you fit a nice smaller custom tank. Radical or not?

eg4.....modification to swing arm pivot mounting to allow fitment of a later model rear swing arm/ wheel combo. Radical or not?

To my way of thinking, none of the above suggestions are radical as ,with the possible exception of eg2,the geometry of the main frame stays the same. Re-rakeing the front end, raising headstocks, fitting rigid rear ends.....yes to me all Radical mods.

Just a thought before I get to in depth planning new projects! Undecided
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hunter
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 12:02:31 PM »

Definitely not 2.
Possibly 3.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 03:49:22 PM by hunter » Logged

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BikerGran
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 12:48:27 PM »

Not sure whether hunter means they are allowed or not - but I do know that a combination of several is regarde as more extreme than just one.......
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hunter
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 03:50:28 PM »

 Fixed,Sorry i meant not.
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kapri
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 05:00:52 PM »

Page 5 tells you all you need to know

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_180218.pdf
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WAYNE999
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 06:53:48 PM »

I think this could be open to a lot of interpretation
The bumph says an unaltered frame but is unaltered untouched or unaltered as in structurally as in altering suspension mounts or steering angle
I was under the impression as long as the main loop of the frame is unaltered and there are no major changes to the suspension and steering all is good.
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Manky Monkey
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 07:23:16 PM »

I plan to SVA my hardtailed bike, but the vast majority of bikers don't seem to bother & carry on riding on the original registration, (I've done it in the distant past myself), through ignorance of the laws or whatever. The usual argument is that they've declared all the modifications to their insurers & they're fine with them -but that doesn't make it legal. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 08:32:50 PM by Manky Monkey » Logged

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Olds
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 07:37:26 PM »

I assume that as there is no wording to the contrary, unaltered means literally that, unaltered
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kapri
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2013, 07:54:25 PM »

As part of the ACE team I clarified EXACTLY what the wording meant re modifying chassis and monococques . You are allowed to strengthen by seam welding on cars you can even add in extra crossmembers. What you can't do is remove any crossmembers , cut ,lengthen shorten, remove anything from the parameters of the chassis

If the same rules apply to bikes then I'd say a hard tail or chopping off anything that doesn't BOLT on lands you in MSVA territory. MSVA doesn't look that hard at all to me anyway ? 
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Bus Boy
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2013, 08:54:55 PM »

Hum.....just as I thought, bit of a grey area!

So heres another for you to ponder. As The Manky One said, in the long distant past,frame mods were carried out and as long as the MOT man said yes,all was good. So if I were to put one these old creations on the road, would it have to go through MSVA even thought there is a ''paper trail'' of previous MOT's and had been used on the road previously without bother.?

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kapri
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2013, 09:58:09 PM »

With cars you get  Grandfather rights if you can prove when the mods were done and that you advised DVLA at the time but they chose not to inspect,bit more difficult to prove with a bike unless any old features of it showing mods.
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ByzMax
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2013, 08:14:07 PM »

As part of the ACE team I clarified EXACTLY what the wording meant re modifying chassis and monococques . You are allowed to strengthen by seam welding on cars you can even add in extra crossmembers. What you can't do is remove any crossmembers , cut ,lengthen shorten, remove anything from the parameters of the chassis

If the same rules apply to bikes then I'd say a hard tail or chopping off anything that doesn't BOLT on lands you in MSVA territory. MSVA doesn't look that hard at all to me anyway ?  

Yep the MSVA is easy. If you can't pass one you'd probably be better off getting someone else to do the work for you. It's actually really only concerned with basic common sense engineering principles and mostly EU regs.

There are two issues here. The first one

If you alter the main chassis by cutting and welding it (including removing gussets) you are deemed to have structurally altered the chassis in a negative sense and therefore will need a MSVA. You can remove and lower the seat rails etc and change the swing arm and make it a hard tail by welding on tabs to do a bolt on conversion. The principle being that it could be returned to the stock bike with the use of spanners (those tools not the chap on here). Weld on hard tails are not acceptable.

The other issue!

There is also a points system in place still and you need 8 points to maintain the identity of the vehicle so it's not just about the chassis/frame


Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified* 5
Suspension (front and back) - original 2
Axles (both) - original 2
Transmission - original 2
Steering assembly - original 2
Engine - original 1

If you don't get the 8 points then you technically need an MSVA.

Saying all of that every inspection I've had has been carried out by someone who has little or no knowledge of the original vehicle and would not have known what was original and what was not. The fact is though if they pass it as ok then you are legal except if they or the insurance company later decide that you failed to declare that these parts are not from the original donor vehicle. Unlikely at the moment but the way things are heading you never know.

Grandfather rights don't exist. If the paperwork V5 notes the changes you are ok if it does not you then need an inspection.

In due course now that the MOT system is computerised it will likely be down to the MOT tester to notify the DVLA when you MOT the vehicle that it has modification that are not standard. You will then be notified that they want to examine the vehicle. Bike testers will know what they are looking at and as VOSA do regular clandestine checks on MOT stations it's going to be harder to find at test centre that is willing to pass what clearly is not a standard  bike. Some people have already been caught out!

Also bear in mind to that your insurance will be invalid even if you have notified your insurance company of the mods as the bike is technically a ringer if the DVLA don't know about it!

Hope that helps  
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 03:17:13 PM by ByzMax » Logged

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BikerGran
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 10:01:45 AM »

Quote
your insurance will be invalid if if you have notified your insurance of the mods as the bike is technically a ringer

Is that a typo?  Did you mean "if you haven't notified" or have I misunderstood?
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Bus Boy
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2013, 06:15:05 PM »

Quote
your insurance will be invalid if if you have notified your insurance of the mods as the bike is technically a ringer

Is that a typo?  Did you mean "if you haven't notified" or have I misunderstood?

No I believe the original ''if you have notified'' is correct! I think BM is saying that your telling one set of suits one thing & another set of suits something else, therefore legally the paperwork wont add-up!

Anyway BM, thanx for the info. Just makes me wonder how many bikes are being used ''ilegally'' modified?
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ByzMax
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2013, 07:33:22 AM »

Quote
your insurance will be invalid if if you have notified your insurance of the mods as the bike is technically a ringer

Is that a typo?  Did you mean "if you haven't notified" or have I misunderstood?

No I believe the original ''if you have notified'' is correct! I think BM is saying that your telling one set of suits one thing & another set of suits something else, therefore legally the paperwork wont add-up!

Anyway BM, thanx for the info. Just makes me wonder how many bikes are being used ''ilegally'' modified?



Yep that is right.

I read on another forum a posting from a chap who had a beach buggy that has been on the road for at least 3 years in his ownership. Taxed insured and MOT'd. I don't know how the circumstances arose but he was "invited to have the vehicle inspected......

The result was that it has been to VOSA and from what I can tell been put through an IVA (this year) and failed. ( it will pass once the required changes have been made)

Why did it need an IVA? Well most beach buggy's are made from shortened Beetle's and as the chassis has been cut that determined it's fate! Had it been one of the longer (less attractive) versions it would have passed the initial inspection due to the points test and would not have needed an IVA and would have remained on it's original reg.

Chassis             5 points
Transmission     2 points
Engine              1 point.

This was not a my mate said a bloke down the pub said story. The chap himself posted it on the forum.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 10:26:30 AM by ByzMax » Logged

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