Manky Monkey Motors

A post from Kev Rooney, (Kapri), on FaceBook this morning. Kev's the man who knows, so if he's upset about it, it's serious.

Latest cr*p from the Department for Transport.
Section 4 is what matters -they want any car going through BIVA to meet MODERN MOT specs, meaning a minimum of cats , fuel injection and ECU to pass .It's going to add £3-7000 to the cost of complying with the regs !!
Got a car caught for being outside the 8 points system?
At the lower end of the market you might as well cube it :(

I'm liaising with NSRA at the moment and will be producing a bullet point list to aid reply to the Consultation.

We also need to be hitting the Minister for transport  and our MPs HARD -the more of a sh*t storm created, the more likley we are to get a proper consultation. These changes are NOT required by EU but are being driven by our own Government !!

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety

Taken from a kit car site:

Unfortunately we will all just sit on our arse and do nothing :'(

Yes, so 4.11 is saying what kev has commented on
-that vehicles going through BIVA will have to comply with the emmisions regulations in force at the time of testing, not those in force when the engine was manufactured.
On the one hand, I can see that sounds logical & reasonable -if major manufacturers have to comply, then everyone should. All newly registered vehicles should be treated the same -but on the other hand, the 1979 Rover engine that was fitted in my Pop when it was registered wouldn't have a hope in hell of meeting those standards.
Should there be a get out clause for low volume production of older engined cars, given that they're a tiny minority of the vehicles on the road? Or should all vehicles be up to spec or it makes a mockery of efforts to improve air quality?
It's a difficult case to argue, but the outcome could have a huge impact on our lifestyle.

There are already Kit Car providers selling the appropriate Cat to satisfy IVA demands, so it maybe just a case of sorting out the emissions. Just like Volkswagen did  ;D ;D 

I can see a long queue at the MOT station forming in May  :D

Just in case this of any use.....................

4.10 states” Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA....”
4.11 states “We are proposing that for kit cars, compliance with.....”  Does include “reconstructed classic cars”


The uk gov document Vehicle Registration (https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration) identifies the following by title.
Rebuilt vehicles
Kit-built vehicles
Kit-converted vehicles
Radically altered vehicles
Old vehicles
Reconstructed classic vehicles

As Government usually tries to keep it titles/definition/names consistant, an assumption could be that as the definitions used in 4.11 above does not include
Rebuilt vehicles
Kit-built vehicles
Kit-converted vehicles
Radically altered vehicles
Old vehicles
Reconstructed classic vehicles

Then maybe the requirement may not be applicable?????

Hope it helps, apologies if not  ;)

Yeah, really not sure how my own build will fare. Q plated, registered in 2013, fitted with a mid 90s Rover Discovery engine, (the original 1979 SD1 engine died, as you know Steve). The engine change is on the logbook now.
I'll probably be looking for an MOT station that's sympathetic to older vehicles -not a dodgy one, but if I took it to a mainstream high street test station they'd probably test it to current regs.
I'm sure builders will gradually adapt to whatever happens, after the initial panic, & eventually big gas guzzling V8s will give way to more eco friendly modern alternatives -with far better performance -which was the whole point of bunging a bigger motor in your hotrod in the first place. Mr Kapri himself is already running a few of his cars on LPG.
Adapt, evolve, survive :)

Andy, you're looking at this from the point of kit or car builders, but the majority of cars this will impact will be the cars that fail the "largely original" or whatever its called test, and will be forced into Iva (will they be forced into this or can a car of this age exist without  vhi status?)
They would automatically fail on emissions, and a cat wouldn't save them, not without efi anyway. I guess a whole load of minis, escorts, landrovers etc will be forced off the road.
Question for the clever - does this apply to trikes?
Sorry Andy, had to edit, called you Kev for some reason...

I've been called worse :)

Hi All.

So if I were building a 2.3 V6 Colgne trike, would it have to pass modern emmissions? I don't want to run around like a headless chicken, but if it is going to be a load of hassle I am wondering if it is going to be worth it.

You can try asking Kev (KAPRI ) ? But he's got a lot going on his plate at the moment..there is so much stuff happening with the dvla etc..it's totally confusing for us mortals..and we know the dvla do not have a clue themselves ..and I expect come may it's going to get worse until the dust settles :'( if you haven't started on the v6 trike it may well be prudent to just wait a while ?

Thanks Stinkey. I have had all the bits for a while, but have only recently got back the mojo to build again.

Andy  yours , and any other already registered BIVA vehicle won't be affected as emission specs are listed on your V5C . Even so , in my experience most MOT testers have still needed to be told what sort of MOT it needs as they look old but have modern date of reg ;)

However it will kill stone dead most other peopels abilityto pass mostly due to the intracies of using a donor ECU and with aftermarkets ecus being underpowered and geard to performance NOT emmisions.

It will make ecu makers install a 2 map system - mot and performance, some do allready.

that would be vw then lol.

Hi All.

 I have put the Ford V6 build on the back burner, and am going to finish a rear engined trike. I am wondering if a modern engine will be able to be used in a new build? Are the rules going to even themselves out, or is it cut and dried?

It's annoying as I was thinking about rebuilding a Reliant lump to sell with the rest of the bits I have spare as well.

As far as I know, there's a consultation period at the moment, but it's very short -something like 28 days. As Kapri said elsewhere, that's not even enough time for everyone affected by it to discover the proposals exist, let alone oppose them. "More a statement of intent than consultation" he said.
I haven't heard any mention of trikes or bikes, but presumably trikes would be treated the same as cars?

Just for info

The title of Section 4 is “Proposed changes to emissions standards for new vehicles using national schemes” is part of the document “Road vehicles - Improving air quality and safety”.

The section talked about in this post is on page 16, entitled Kit Cars, and consists of 4.10, 4.11, 4.12 and 4.13.

Link to the uk Gov website and the document (pdf)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678209/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety.pdf

But generally, requirements for trikes are allong the lines of bikes - aren't they? Certainly that's how I saw the sva requirements?

I'd assume something along the lines of a standard Reliant would be treated more like a car than a bike?

The difference in requirements is based on whether you sit IN it or ON it ;)

I had this conversation with BayChimp yesterday Kev -he's wondering whether his Reliant trike is now worth finishing -?

Do I carry on with mine ? My sons sold his this week ?

Good question Steve.

 I dragged out the Nissan Micra engine and box which I have had in the garden for a few years, with an idea of building the frame I have around it instead, and getting a 1.3 lump later on. They are very cheap at the moment.

 I am hoping that using a lump with all the gear on will get around the new ruling, but it still won't look the same as a Ford V6. :'(

(http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL933/3516399/9146165/413781245.jpg)

Or-

(http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL933/3516399/9146165/413781281.jpg)

I'd be very interested to see a fully eco friendly, ECU'd, CATT'd low emission custom of any wheel configuration. I wonder what the best current vehicle would be to use as a donor? Who's going to build the first electric trike, bike or hotrod?
We're all trying to build with big, musclebound engines, but the whole point of modifying to begin with was simply to make the thing quicker wasn't it? My little modern commuter car's probably quicker than the 3 1/2 litre V8 in my truck. Perhaps we just need to start thinking a bit more outside the box?

 If it was going in the front, it would need a five speed box. If so I am looking at a Bedford Rascal/Suzuki Carry gearbox, and if doing that I/we might as well look for a Suzuki Jimny/Carry 1.3 lump and box. I would even be tempted to keep the box and run a shaft off the side, but then there would be two diff's to drive through.

 If going in the back, any size of modern front wheel drive engine and drivetrain will go in there. I looked at a Micra because it was here, but on nosing through Gumtree I saw a 1.3 auto micra with 60,000 miles for 200 quid.

If you want power, with low emissions, stick a turbo on it! Plus of course the injectors, cat and dual map ecu to get it through the test.

Regarding trikes. At present, as far as I can tell, there are no plans to apply the new proposals to MSVA. Also it is not whether you sit on or in, have handle bars or steering wheel, or what the engine came out of. It is the wheel configuration and weight (trike) or power and weight (quad) that determines if the vehicle subject to MSVA.
Yes Bob should get on and finish the trike. Probably sooner than later. New bike emission limits are getting tighter and who knows when someone in authority, might decide to change the rules.

Well after reading various messages on diffierent forums..I decide to contact the lady from the DVLA who's been assisting me with my trike..ie..building it on my Disibilty ? She told me that has from 1st January (2018) I can no longer do that..(dam I ran out of MONEY and time  :-[). And it has to be built to go through MSVA..which means changing several things but still doable I'm sure,?  But I suspect it's going to be a while now ? So for anybody who's thinking / building one please be aware ?
The lady I spoke to is Amanda Price..Kits and Rebuilds dept..always been very helpful to me ?

Within the huge, jumbled bureaucracy of the DVLA, there are actually some very knowledgeable & helpful people. The woman in charge of one-off builds at the Wimbledon office, (my local one when I lived in Guildford), was absolutely charming & really knew her stuff, helping fill in all the paperwork & advising me on loads of stuff. She even stayed on beyond the end of her shift & missed her train home one day to get the forms submitted.
So no opt out of MSVA for disabled builders any more? Hadn't heard of that.
Bob's found someone to wire up my old trike, which was one of the main stumbling blocks to completion -so yes, come on Bob, get it done! Even if you sell it, it'll be worth more if it's running :);

I'm glad I rang her because I'd arranged to take to the weighbridge and MOT centre ? I'm so fed up now?

Just a set-back Steve, not the end of the World. A few modifications & it'll go through normal MSVA won't it?
Don't give up mate :)

 :D I'm ok dude,it's been a long slow slog with being poorly and government cutbacks now causing more grief..and more health issues cropping up :-\ if I ever sell my house ,I may be finishing the trike off in Spain ? 8)

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/102714/new-emissions-laws-likely-as-government-loses-court-case-over-pollution-plans

Doesn't sound good does it.
Surely traffic isn't the only big pollution producer? There must be other things they could target as well?

The poor motorist pays again while big business gets away with it.

Careful what you wish for ;) In the States big business was told to clean up their act . They could however simply create emission credits by removing old polluting cars from the road. So instead of sorting their problem they created a shortage of vehicles driving secondhand vehicles prices up and and crushing od restorable or parts cars :(

It would be interesting to see the figures, the real figures, for the emissions created by the additional electrical energy generation required, to "fuel" those 'clean', electrically driven, vehicles, which are to be the principal solution to the CO2 problem, though how we extrapolate that to Boeing 'Jumbos' et al defeats me.... mmmmm... ??? ??? ???  Morrag

Bad news Stinkey. I'm sure you will get it sorted though.

The Bournemouth DVLA office were excellent too Andy. I used them a lot. They really helped me with my trike and it was a chap from there who came out to give the final ok. A lady there also saved me when I needed to tax my car but had a problem with my tax exempt certificate. She too worked way beyond her job description. I sent a commendation letter to her manager and included a thank you card for her to let them know I appreciated it.

Totally shortsighted action when they closed all the satellite offices. So much knowledge lost and more hassle for us punters. I assume they lost their jobs unless they could relocate perhaps.

Not so easy to bash the airlines, or even revoke their tax exemption on fuel, cos it would make the news big style - flight costs would nearly double, people couldn't afford holls etc.
Easier, much easier to bash the motorist, and net the enthusiast with him.
The cost to jobs in this country will be huge - all those firms supplying bits to rebuild old cars will go pop, it'll take time, but they will...
Aaand, it won't make a bit of difference to the air quallity for 99.9% of the pop.

cheers JJ I will eventually ..the lady I spoke to was so helpful and I could hear the other girls laughing in the background so obviously enjoying their work ? :D

And even before the emissions from fuelling, what about the figures for building them, and making batteries for them, and the HUGE problem of disposing of the batteries when they're done for>

I'm with you BG, seriously thought about electric, hybrid. Then speaking to a mechanic in the Honda garage, he informs me you dont actually own the batteries they are on lease with the car, 5 years is about right but they can go a tad longer. Honda hybrid = £1500 for new batteries. Then there is the recycling of lithium etc. We have already a stockpile of Nuclear subs here in Devon we cant get shot of.

Nuclear sub going begging, I'll take one. What could possibly go wrong?

Depends on how many wheels you are going to add to it.  :D

When we were discussing this before I mentioned the problems of electric cars, including the batteries. See below:

http://www.mankymonkeymotors.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16479.msg231260#msg231260 (http://www.mankymonkeymotors.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=16479.msg231260#msg231260)

I'm thinking I'm glad I'm the age I am because it's horrible watching the way so many things are changing ? One hopes things will get better and improve but it's a constant battle and us humans keep making stupid mistakes over and over,and bloody politicians who don't have a clue force silly rules etc upon us ?
From what I've seen I'd prefer Hydrogen powered cars..but I'm sure someone will prove me wrong ?

I'm with you stinkey, had a great time mid 60's into the 70's. Then came the techie revolution and I never caught up. Can still build an engine and do up cars without a computer. All this new stuff is to deep for me. Hydrogen Fuel is secreted away by some oil giant, they don't want us Knowing to much.  ???

I think every generation probably thinks that way :) Nobody likes change do they. The Victorians probably hated the industrial revolution too :)

There are supposed to be at least eight thousand patents which the US government have hidden away which could improve our lives. Anything which goes through their patent office gets looked at by the military first, and if it's any good they 'borrow' it in the national interest.

Who gives a s**t about the US patents..let's see the uk ones ? ::)

It would be no good to you at all. ,lol,,

It would sink with all the holes you would add to it  :D :D

We did invent all the best stuff, I spose.

The UK MOD have the same arrangement with UK patents as the US DOD have and supposedly have kept far more patents applications secret, than their US counterparts. It is standard practice for most countries, to refer patent applications to their defence departments for scrutiny, prior to publication.

That's why I said it Mr pink.. ;)

I didn't know that -that explains why my patent for a banana firing machine gun was never accepted then.

I have heard that they are developing your Shortcake firing Bazooka.

But the Jaffa Cake landmine experiments came to a sticky end. :D

Hi All.

I phoned VOSA, who are now Driving Standards, asking about these new emission rules and how they affect a new build. I got the following reply just now.

...

There has been no change to MSVA regulation of late, and there are no impending requirements in the future that we know of at the this stage.

 

So as it stands you are only required to meet the current standard of 4.5% CO at Idle (for Spark Ignition Engines).

 

The MSVA manual can be found in the following link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval-inspection-manual

 

I hope that you have found this information to be of use. If you feel that I can be of further assistance in this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Kind Regards

Mike Jones

 

Michael Jones BEng | DVSA Vehicle Approvals Technical Team


Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse | Padley Road | Swansea | SA1 8AN
T : 0300 123 9000 | F : 01792 454214 | E : approvals.technical@dvsa.gov.uk

As i said before, there was no mention of bikes, trikes or quads (anything under MSVA) in the proposals. It would only apply to cars, vans etc. that are tested under BIVA.
This does not however rule out the possibility that eventually, similar changes may affect MSVA. It's just not being planned for at the present time.

Just in case its of use / interest, the FBHVC website has some new Newsletters available to read / download.

Issue 3 (page 3 relates to Mots and IVAs)

Issue 3 addendum (which has info that the FBHVC says supersedes all previous advice the Federation may have given including that in Issue 3 of the Newsletter).

http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/members-pages/newsletter-archive/

 ;)