Manky Monkey Motors

Not having anything to actually build is driving me nuts, so I've decided to have a go doing my own girder forks. :) 
The Manta Ray graphics design (http://mantaraygraphics.com/girder.html) looks to be quite well thought out so will be based on that, though will be 8" shorter to fit the trike.
Have ordered most of the steel that I don't already have and am trying to find suitable bushes for the links. Might end up making those as well.
The steering stem I already have. At the moment it's still attached to a Z750Ltd bottom yoke so will need to be carefully cut out.
Finding a suitable suspension unit, with the right spring rate might be problematic, as I really want to keep to a single unit, the forks will be quite narrow to fit my existing wheel / brake setup. Keeping costs down is as always a priority.
Helpful comments and suggestions are, as always welcome. :)

Sounds interesting Dave. Looking forward to following this one.

Great design that

weren't they similar to the ones on TAZs trike.
if you make them Dave don't us there trail set up of 4.5" that's for a bike. you need to work on 1.5/2.0"

Planning on 1 5/8" (41mm) trail.
General dimensions,
 axle to bottom pivot 21"
 axle to top pivot 30"
 width - 7 1/2" cl to cl of down tubes ( blades )
 Links - 4" lg
 Blade tubes- 21.3mm x 3 wall cfs

Have done initial drawings and found a few changes to basic dimensions are needed
Axle to bottom pivot cl 22.25"
Axle to top pivot 31.5"
And links will have to be 4.72" long

I couldn't do the drawing, let alone make the part.

Olds is that drawing to scale ;D

Well I thought it was.
 1:2 & 1:1 But the smiley face makes me think I may have got something wrong. :-\
It's not a production drawing just a basic layout to determine pivot locations and test ideas.

i think what ,hunter, wants to do is nick youre plans  ;) ;)

NO.No.No.I was leg pulling,
Very good drawing though.

Hi Dave did you produce this excellent drawing by hand, or is it computer CAD programme.

I think it's pad, not cad

Silly sods, its PAP
Pencil and paper.  ::)

That could be paper and pencil.

my drawings are ,trial n, error, ;)
,


,




,




,

,,,,,,,,
or  etch-a-scetch  :D :D :D :D

I like drawing.
The crayons taste nice.

Especially the red ones :D

Steel plate for the yokes has arrived. Think I'm going to need a lot of hacksaw blades as they are 20mm thick. Just looking at it makes my arms ache.
I am just going out, to the garage. I may be some time.
(Apologies to Capt. L Oates)

try a jigsaw. low speed coarse teeeth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TU8HKqrtzI&list=UUGwEI_g2v8x06CFltaKsxWA&index=4

 ;D Watched another of his vids. He's a hoot.
That was 6mm plate he was cutting. Burnt out my jigsaw last time I tried something over 12mm thick. Will probably get some thin cutting discs for the angle grinder. It annoys the neighbours ;D

Bring it over to Loony's workshop Dave -the neighbours are used to us using angle grinders.
Bet Heather the post lady loved you for making her lug that steel about.

Luckily for her some other poor postie had to carry it  :D  I'd forgotten quite how heavy 20mm steel is.
Have spent two hours roughing out the top yoke. This could take a while.

Top yoke. Just roughed out.
Once finished it should look like a forging.

The neighbours will be happy.
 Lots of smoke and not a lot of go from the angle grinder >:( Yep the motor caught fire
Never mind there is still the hacksaw and hand files, till I can get another. It's just a hell of a lot slower :)

i think thats ,,foooo-barrred  :D :D :D :D :D :D

Angle grinder situation sorted + picked up a new 25mm drill bit, to bore the yokes for the headstock stem.
Bored the top one out on the lathe using a 4 jaw chuck and kept the speed down to about 60 rpm as it was so unbalanced.
Also drilled the riser mount holes.

did you put the yoke in the chuck ?

Yep. Only just fit. Luckily it swung in gap before the bed slides.

Steering stem carefully removed from a Z750 bottom yoke. Seemed a shame to cut it up, but the yoke wasn't in great condition, it will save a lot of machine time and I know that it will fit.

Bottom yoke slab roughed out and bored with a fine taper for the first 3mm to aid pressing in the steering stem.
Will press together later once I have finished shaping the yoke and got some more propane.

Doh ! Like a complete fool I forgot to drill the pinch bolt hole before radiusing the top slab. After breaking three bits trying to drill into the radius . I ended up cutting the bolt head counter bore out with a hammer and chisel, to give a flat surface to drill into.
One hole drilled tapped and counter bored, 4 hours of swearing at my own ineptitude. :-[
The slot will be cut once the pivot tube is welded on.

Nice to know I'm not the only one who messes up!

How are the links attached

For once, I am sort of working things out as I go along, but the plan is for the links to be bushed and running on fixed but replaceable shafts, threaded each end, fitted into tubes welded onto the yoke slabs ( if that makes any sense ). Bottom yoke tube will be welded to it's yoke once everything is assembled to ensure correct geometry  (hopefully). The reason for bushing the links rather than the yokes is that it allows a larger diameter shaft and makes changing the bushes easier.

I'm resuming mine soon so keeping an eye on what you do :)

Well don't expect fast progress. Especially if we get good weather.
Despite the drawing, I am also looking at using single large tubes, as an alternative to the twin tube triangulated setup, but don't think they will suit the look of deliverance :-\

Have a look at Brit Chopper web site - Chris Ireland aka 'Desperate' uses motorcycle wheel spindles on his version running in olite bushes

Thanks for that, had looked into this but getting four new wheel spindles was going to be a lot more expensive than making my own.
Plus I really want to make maintenance easy, so I want to be able to remove any link with its associated bushes without having to strip the whole front end.

Cracking looking girders
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t466/steveatthemorgue/cool%20bike%20pics/null_zps855fe34a.png)

Nice to see more girders.

Here's some of mine

(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h351/ChoppitPics/101_2436_zpsd8056393.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ChoppitPics/media/101_2436_zpsd8056393.jpg.html)

(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h351/ChoppitPics/101_2434_zpsc9672e8e.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ChoppitPics/media/101_2434_zpsc9672e8e.jpg.html)

(http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h351/ChoppitPics/SAM_1267_zpsfe0da808.jpg) (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/ChoppitPics/media/SAM_1267_zpsfe0da808.jpg.html)

Them's nice Iain.

Why thank you good Sir. I'm fairly pleased with em too!

Very nice. I really like the end caps.
Not a lot done recently. Well actually, only managed to finish shaping the bottom yoke slab and pressed in the stem. The tube for the legs arrived and it's rubbish. I can actually see that it's not of uniform wall thickness, so that will get relegated to making garden furniture or something.
Luckily there is no hurry :D

so what spec tube did you order?

Was supposed to be 21.3 x 3 wall cold finished. Diameter varies between 21.13 & 21.44 and wall thickness is around 2.75. Always knew the size would be border line and now I've handled the stuff decided to go for 25.4 x 3.25 cds. Just got to find some at a reasonable price.

Finally got the top yoke finished (last time I said that I realised I'd forgotten the shock mounts). :-[
Trying to get a cast/ forged look. Not perfect but after twenty hours of welding, grinding and filing I've decided it's good enough. :-\
Its a bit heavy ( 1.7 kg just the top yoke) but it's not going to break.

looks good ON ,it does look cast

Lovely workmanship as always Dave.
My, that's a nice mug you have there. If only there were somewhere online where one could purchase such a marvellous receptacle.

Thanks guys. Not a lot done recently, been too busy enjoying the trike and bikes while the weather stays good.
As for the mug, got mine from some dodgy looking character at a local workshop, but I think you can get them from -
http://www.mankymonkeymotors.co.uk/merchandise.html
That big enough Andy? ;D

Very subtle Dave.  ;)

Had a bit of luck and got all four pivot pins for less than £12.00 ;D
New old stock Austin 1100/1300 rear suspension pivots, that with a very small amount of lathe work to suit the bearings, will be perfect.

Bargain!

£12 you was robbed they were only £8 in 1964.

Pivottastic

Planned on taking the trike out and visit one of the many shows on today but have knackered my back.
So dosed up on paracetamol and a little Scottish cure all, I set about making the rear fork legs. Trying to get the bends exactly right proved difficult
as the tube has a bit more spring to it than the steam pipe used for the frame.
Then two hours of sweating with hacksaw and file saw one of the tubes prepped each end. The other will have to wait

.

some tidy bends and notching well done i struggle to get bends as tight as that whats the secret ?

Bends aren't perfect but as long as there are no wrinkles and any flattening is less than 10 % of the diameter, then I'm happy. With this tube I just allowed a minute or so between each 5mm of ram movement. The idea being to allow the steel to stretch slowly. No evidence that this makes any real difference, but I was in no hurry and thought I'd try it.
For small, thin wall stuff I fill with molten lead. Bigger stuff, I'd normally pack with sand. 

sh#t its a few years since i last changed some of them

.

Nice work there olds,
I think you've done this before.

Skillage

I've got mates at work who just can't understand why I get excited by things like that -but ain't that a pretty joint! Very nice Dave.

Thanks.
RH axle mount /clamp. Will final ream and cut clamping slot after welding.

That's lovely that is.

Truly skillfull.....more sculptured than engineered.

very very nice that man, its great to see skilful engineering completed with dedication and pride ;) brings back memories of my mentor, making me produce a perfect 1" cube of steel, using only a file !! Skills that are rarely taught these days, mores the pity.

Loony was bashin' metal at the workshop recently while I was stood at the workbench, filing. An old guy wandered past, then came back -"I haven't heard those sounds from a workshop for years. Proper engineering!"  ;D

Cor I remember having to do that, making sure all the sides were flat and all the corners square, then drilling a hole in one corner. Next task was making an instrument vice useing only hand tools.

Thanks again guys. It's nice to have ones efforts appreciated.  :)
Most folk, have no idea of the amount of time and effort that goes into making one offs by hand.

Got a little more done. Made the side braces/lower pivot supports, from 2" x 1" box section and the pivot tube. Then lightly tacked the fork blades together.
These are not going to be long and slender forks, but a bit chunky and robust to suit the commercial vehicle look of the trike.

They're looking good

Thanks.

Welded up the forks and everything appears to have remained square and true  ;D. The dummy wheel spindle I turned up still fits. Was half expecting the blades to twist, jamming the spindle in place. It's a slightly tighter fit showing there has been some movement but nothing I can measure.

Pic to follow

Spent the whole evening grinding out the welds and doing it again :(
I originally welded up the forks using the mig. Looked OK and probably was but being as my life depends on these welds decided to remove all doubt by carefully grinding out and re-welding using old fashioned arc welding. Doing it one section at a time to stop any distortion. Not as pretty and will need a bit of dressing but I know it will be strong.

Managed to get a bit more done.
Top links cut from 50x12 steel flat. Only wanted 32mm wide so out with the angle grinder  :D. Two lengths were welded together prior to drilling to ensure equal distance between holes.
Lots of shaping with a file before they will look decent.

Them's nice Dave.

I agree ON,as the say over here "you've got great hands on ye"

Nice work going on over there, do you want to come over to my gaff and give me a hand ;D (only joking) not quite got to the starting stage yet, should be soooooon.

 :o Aint you started yet Merv? I'm just setting up for my next build 8)

Nice job your making Dave :)

:D
Top links finished apart from paint. Would have liked a nickel finish but haven't got around to trying that yet.
Yes I know the pic makes them look slightly bent and different lengths but that's lens distortion.

lovely bit of engineering O N :)

Would have preferred to make them as I beam section but not having a mill meant that they had to be shaped by hand file.
Lower ones should be different as I would like to make them look like they have friction dampers.

ON do you fancy making some more ?

I shall assume that you are pulling my proverbial.
NO!!! :D
Took at least 3 hours graft, each to get them to where I was happy. I still have two more to do. Welded construction would have been easier but wouldn't have given the look I'm after.
Beginning to think that perhaps making girders was avery silly idea.

Making mine has taken many hours too, a great achievement all the same :)

Hi guys.......what's the latest on these forks?
Theyarevlooking so good itwould be great to see some more pics and an update........please

Not much more to say at the moment. Hopefully Will get the lower links cut out tomorrow (wish I had a laser cutter/flowjet/profile cutting torch but I don't :'( so it's angle grinder and hacksaw).  Waiting for a shock absorber (bid in on ebay) then I can fix the lower shock mount position. other things to do include the four mudguard mounts and the brake hose splitter location. The brake calliper mounts will have to wait until I take the trike off the road for the winter. I also intent to make handlebars with built in brackets to fit to bolt on flanders style risers
Pic of axle pinch bolt side. Not the neatest welding but it will do.

Got one of the lower links roughed out. Still a long way to go but this shows the general idea.

One done :) Next comes the hard bit. Making another exactly the same.

Nicely done Dave. How did you create that rounded shoulder? Looks machined rather than hand filed.
What are "Flanders" style handlebar mounts? (I'm guessing it's nothing to do with the Simpsons).

Roughed out with the angle grinder, then finished with hand files.
Flanders risers, very difficult to describe but simple and very old school and look good on girders and springers.

Hi ON, looking very very very nice. I'm feeling the need to make something too......

"Olds", you've done this before I think,and I don't mean these particular forks!!!!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;),it's in the same vein as what my old Dad used to describe as the 'Tradesman's Bill', i.e." £1 for use of hammer, and another £1 for knowing where to hit it!! ;D"  Morrag

 ;)  Thanks guys.
Bolt on Flanders style risers.
On mine I don't want the bulky clamps, so these will be replaced with lugs on the handlebars.

Yeah, they'll look nice.

Hope so. Not made them yet :-\
Roughing out using an angle grinder.

Not quite identical but close enough !

Trial fitted.

I have a "Workmate" just like that, hang on a dogone minute! I thinks that is mine ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

My workmate's been off sick for 2 days. He's scruffy & covered in paint too.
Detailing makes all the difference Dave. Looking rather splendid.

It's not scruffy, It's shabby chic :D

I dont think you can call Loony a chick? ;)

He's been called a lot worse -& that's only by me.

 :D
At last I've got the shocks. Nearly new for £19 the pair :)
Have it on good authority that I will only need one, but if not there is room for both.

Cb125 shocks?

Sort of. Chinese 125, so I don't expect the chrome to last long :). I tested them out on my Suzuki and the damping seems fine.

Very very very nice work ON. Just what i aspire too. One of these days.....
As for my workmate can i have it back when you've finished with it :D

 :D

Bottom shock mounts made and fitted. One side is tapped m12x1.75. The pivot tube they are welded to, is only tacked to the forks at the moment, so I can adjust the ride height once everything is assembled and fitted to the trike. I will do the same with the bottom pivot tube on the 'yoke' so that I can adjust the trail.

Ok......its dumb question time i'm afraid.........
How do you know what length to make the links? Is there some special rule or something  ??? Making girder forks is a "black art" to me :-[
Thanks
Regards
K

It's mainly a matter of compromises.
The links have to be long enough to clear the back of the forks. The deeper the forks the stronger they are. Longer links give more travel but increase sideways forces on the pivots.
You also have to take into consideration the space the shock unit takes up and make sure that if will not foul on the headstock, or the top fork pivot tube, at the limits of it's travel.
 The forks have to be designed to suit the frame, to keep steering geometry within reasonable parameters.
I think the usual length of links is between 80mm and 110mm but there is no hard and fast rule.

My frame was initially designed with girders in mind and fitting telescopics, left me with far too much trail.
Because I decided on deep forks, the links are quite long at 120mm and this is why I went with bearings in the links, as they are easier to replace as they wear.

Top yoke pivot machined and pressed in. Trial fitted and everything lines up OK.The bushes are a little tight at the moment but no binding. The real test will be when I finish the lower pivot :-\  If all the pivots are parallel all will be fine. If not..........

I wish I had your cleveriness Dave.

 :-[  Not that clever, still don't know if they will work.

 :D Apart from a couple of bushes being too tight all seems to be well.

Very nicely done.

looking well have you gained much trail ? be interesting to see i it under over steers in comparison to what you have 

Hopefully lost a lot. The steering is quite heavy at the moment but very stable in a straight line.
Had way to much trail to begin with at approx. 6 1/4" (159mm) If I've done my sums right I should end up with 1 5/8" (41mm)

everyday is a school day.... so please sir do you want my apple ??
in pic above are they not 4" quarry tiles on your floor?
if yes how can you get 41mm ?
my pan has 27.5 degrees rake and 101mm trail
how did you compute those figures ?
ill sit in the corner for the present

Deliverance has 41 degrees of rake (and the floor tiles are 6")

as usual those look good ON

take a look at this and see why im puzzled


http://levelfive.com/HTML/Illustration_Portfolio/Suspension_Bible.html

Sorry,  but can't see the problem. ???
I am not altering the rake angle of the frame which is actually 41degrees 30 minutes.
The greater the rake angle the greater the ground trail. This can be reduced by using yokes with a greater offset, 'raked yokes' or using forward axle forks, all of which push the axle line forwards. Girder forks also tend to do this because of the length of the links. The rake of the forks is not dependent on the rake of the headstock but rather on the relative horizontal positions of the upper and lower pivot. By adjusting the lower pivot point forward or back I can change the rake of the forks (not the frame) to achieve the required trail.

no problem mate im here to learn i think your forks are a work of art the off set looks quite large and i was expecting you to say the trail had increased
41 degrees of rake would explain 159mm of trail at present then you say you hope to have 41mm now
there is no problem mr ON ... like most topics on here folk are in search of input or knowledge im not having a pop at your work merely trying to understand for my own projects
please take it as a compliment not a criticism and look forward to you road testing it  ;D    

Sorry stumpy, wasn't suggesting you had a problem. You just made me think that there may be a problem with my own logic and to be honest, it's been so long since I had to do this sort of thing, doubts creep in.

Nice Job ON.

The only issue with the trail that you need to watch out for is when braking the front does not dip too much. This reduces the trail and often into the negative area as the headstock height and angle changes as it is pivoting around the rear axle .

On trikes it's usually ok though as the handlebars are normally long enough to stop you going into a tankslapper due to the leverage you have.

That is one concern among many.
Hopefully with the small amount of suspension travel expected, we should not quite get into a negative trail situation.
In making the bottom pivot adjustable (sort of) I can change the trail to overcome any handling problems that arise.

The tight bushes I mentioned earlier, turned out to be a slightly bent shaft, caused by welding on the lower shock mounts. Not enough to notice but required some (a lot) heat and a little (a lot) of persuasion to straighten. :-[

Will soon get to the point where I can go no further till I can assemble the forks on the trike.
Turned up the outer thrust bearings/washers today and hopefully will get around to the inner ones soon.

I also decided to have a go at bending the new handlebars. 25.4mm x 3.24mm wall  CFS tube, annealed where the main bends are. These are 38" wide 14" pullback with a 2" rise. Not entirely sure if I like them.  :-\

I recon they will look alright Dave,once you have mounted them up.

Thought the straight centre section was too long, so I had another go

Decided add built in risers to the handlebars rather than use Flanders as intended. Still have a couple of hours of weld smoothing ahead.
Trying hard to get a vintage look/feel about them
At the moment these are free to rotate, so I can adjust the angle of the bars once everything is assembled.

nice looking bars

Thanks.
Being this wide they do look a bit thin but I will see how they look once painted.
Assembled everything up on the bench today and all seems OK. Next on the list is the headlight mounting.

looking very tasty ON  ;).

Going slightly off on a tangent here....but seeing as you lot are way ahead of the game on girders and suspension set ups. Do you think this set up would work ok....it looks simple enough. ??? ???

leading links or ,earls, forks as they were once known  i had them on a DOT trials bike years back  some even had bent/curled forward stanchions and were commonaly called ,,,banana forks,,,

Yeah....but do they work as good as girders...or worse ?

An "Earles" type fork is probably the best solution to a trikes steering probs. Girders, whilst they may be a personal preference for cosmetic reasons, are very limited in function, on a trke or solo However, that in no way detracts from the excellent workmanship of the set "Olds" is manufacturing, but thems the facts I'm afraid!.......Morrag

Morrag is correct. Girders for example tend to have short travel and are prone to excessive wear and high maintenance compared to teles.

You don't state the application they are to be used in. The use of 'short leading link' forks works well on lightweight bikes such as the Honda C50 etc. For a trike of any size I'd say that Earles are probably the best function wise. You could  make an Earles/short leading link hybrid by joining the links together around the back of the wheel, similar to those use on some Greeves. Sure there must be a name for these but can't think of one.

One thing I'd like to say is, one of the reasons that I'm making these forks, is to see if I can. If they don't look right or work well once fitted I'm quite happy to scrap them. It's all a learning experience. :)

From what I can tell from the pics, they will certainly work at least as well as this type of fork is able, and should you decide not to use them, I'm absolutely sure there will be a line of prospective buyers!! so scrapping will not enter the equation. For trike purposes I'm sure they will be fine, as the horizontal plane is not their problem, and excessive suspension travel is unnecessary for the application, so it will be interesting to see how they perform. They will be at the very least as serviceable in a trike application, as the more traditional, at least these days!! telescopic fork. when used at the excessive rakes seen on some builds, where the only real suspension action is the "bending" moment in the stations!! ::) ::) ::) ho, hum....Morrag

 :) Thanks for the vote of confidence morrag.
The point I was trying to make is that if you want to try something different, such as 'short leading link suspension', there is not a lot to lose in trying, if you accept that it may not work from the start and just enjoy doing it :).

Girders are great on trikes if set up correctly. I've built a few sets over the years now and they work fine.

The problem is they need to be designed for the vehicle they are going to be fitted to and don't suit being swapped to another.

The biggest issue is find the right damper and spring set up but with trial and error you can get it.

The wear problems are down to poor design of links, shafts and bearing housing. Alignment is a problem too as welding distorts parts that have just been machined to a fine tolerance.

Nice work ON

I agree with what you all say....I was,nt trying to stir things up, your skills and knowledge are amazing. I only wanted to find out as I was considering trying to make a set of girders,but when I saw those other forks on the yam xs650, well it gave me an idea weather to try and make a set of those instead. Only because they seem easy to make {famous last words} for someone like me  ::) ::) 

Well, I must tell you Hornet , whatever fork you decide to make will not be "easy" as it requires an excellent level of engineering skills,as witnessed by the build in this thread, coupled with a comprehensive "tool kit" ie, Welding gear, lathe, pedestal drill etc. or access to same, so if you don't have these, then for safety sake, try something else!! Your building process must include a form of reliable 'Gig' to ensure accuracy and conformity, so if you have all those things.........................off you go! but if not, keep viewing "Olds" project, as an alternative, or at least until you do ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)  Morrag

This is getting sort of embarrassing  :-[ but thank you.
 True, I'm lucky enough to have a lathe, small pillar drill and basic welding equipment. But trying to make these forks at home, is pushing the limits for me.
That is what makes it fun. ;D
The wife thinks I'm nuts, she may be right :P

you make it look easy ON

Perish the thought I should contribute to anyones embarrassment!! ;D ;D ;D however, it happens to to be the focus of this thread, so.....it is worth being reminded that on a Forum such as this there are all types of contributor, and with very widely ranging engineering abilities, and rightly so, however, we should also remind those contributors not to over stretch their capabilities or It can become a dangerous hobby!so be cautious in your targets.And with that I shall retire from the discussion, but shall watch with interest ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???....Morrag

Very wise words Morrag.

Slow progress but have made the headlamp stirrup mount. Managed to blend it in with the lower shock mounts so should look like  one piece once fully finished.
Will need to make another stirrup as the existing one has a different mounting arrangement and is slightly the wrong shape.

Great job... Starting to rethink mine now .. Lol

The quality of these forks is fantastic. Sets a standard for sure :)

Thanks.
Unable to get on with other jobs, so I decided to get the headlamp stirrup started.
Just need to shorten the stem to length, fit a stepped base flange to match the handlebar risers and finish smoothing the welds.

That's nice Dave. How did you form the mounts that the light bolts to? I like the cast look of these girder fittings.

The top bolt holes are 8mm round bar bent around a 10 mm mandrel while red hot. Just wrap it around like making a closed up spring, 2 1/2" turns then cut through, reheat and flatten into rings.
The stem is 16mm OD 3mm wall tube and will be tapped M12 to take the mounting bolt. The half hoop is 12mm OD 2mm wall tube.
This weighs a fraction of the existing stirrup which I made of solid bar.

If you don't have heat try welding a suitable size nut in place then drill it out  :)

Headlamp stirrup finished. Pic shows forks at approximately the correct angle.

Coo, you've managed to smuggle them into the house?

Yep  ;D Missus was out and it was warmer inside.
Fitted them to the trike this afternoon and managed to do so without disconnecting the electrics (apart from the battery of course) etc. just in case it was a total disaster and I had to revert back to the teles.
Not totally convinced about the look, but this is difficult to judge without mudguard, lights, horn and paint. Plus I have got used to the look of the teles.
Ride height is fine but ended up with slightly more trail than calculated. 46mm where I was aiming for 41mm, close enough not to need to alter anything. Not sure where the extra 5mm came from  ???

That's some achievement .. Well done

Well in my very humble opinion Dave, they look fabulous.

Nicely done Dave, I hate girders but as an engineering exercise,I really applaud the workmanship and style of those, so a big "attaboy!" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  Morrag

sound job i think when they are fully dressed they will grow on you and at the end of the day its the road test that will be the true decision maker
and that extra 5 mm i sent it to you just cover the postage .... looks good from where im sitting only thing i would change is handle bar height or tilt towards tank a little  :D :D

those look the job ON...get em painted

Thanks guys.
Must admit Morrag, I'm no fan of girders either, but they should fit in with the overall look of the trike plus they were fun to make. As Stumpy says the real decider as to whether to keep them or not will be the road test.
Still a few things to do before they are finished, calliper and mudguard mounts, brake splitter bracket plus I still need to modify the handlebars to take the new internal throttle I made and the 7/8" switch gear. These are all thing that really needed the forks on the trike to finalise.
Decided to mount the callipers behind/below the forks as they are much less obtrusive there.

Makes the front end look lower & longer I think -which is good.
Personally, I agree with Stump that maybe the bars need to tip down a little to follow the line of the tank, but otherwise perfect.

You mean like this?
Not got around to finalising the angle of the bars yet. I will sit on the trike for quite some time before deciding the best angle to suit my knackered wrist, but so far this is quite comfy.

The bars at that angle does look in keeping with the flow of things, and can I say I don't partially like girder forks, but there is no knocking the engineering and workmanship that went into creating yours, your whole trike is a credit to you

I have no strong feeling either way about girder forks except that they need to suit the particular vehicle - I reckon those do, and will look much better of course when painted.  Nice job!

The extra 5mm would probably be due to the front not dropping as much as you may have expected. Remember that the trike pivots around the rear axle and the front drops as the suspension is compressed at the front. This reduces the trail so.... When you sit on it you'll find it'll probably lose that 5mm and then some more when braking.

Nice work and they look great. Love girders!

They look great....and suit your trike well. Somehow, that front wheel seems to match the style of the girders better than the teles, or vice versa.
Great skill and craftmanship.

Tidy, but whether you will be able to adjust that headlamp beam, sufficient to satisfy the MOT man, is open to conjecture, to put it mildly...!! :D :D :D :D :D, I feel one of my headaches coming on..... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[  Morrag

Thanks once again folks.
As to the extra 5mm think it's actually down to taking slightly inaccurate measurements in the first place. I think I can forgive myself for being 0.38 of a degree out.

I was contemplating changing the wheels for wire ones all round but have decided to stay with what's fitted.

Got a bit confused and worried about headlamp beam adjustment, morrag  :o, till I remembered the pics  :D

Not every thing is quite right however. On full extension, as in when you jack the front off the ground, the top pivot tube just touches the shock shroud. This is larger in diameter than I allowed for.  :(

Look fantastic. Really good job :)

lovely job olds

Realy nice work that Olds,
I to thought it would look better with a wire wheel in there.

stunning work mate  ;)

Who's a clever monkey then !!!! Top job there, looks very period style.....nice.

 :)

Life has not been kind Dave, but when you get your new lenses, you might see the way forward a little better!!! :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

 :D
First of the caliper mounts made and fitted. Took two days to get right and I could have done it in an hour with a simple plate. ::)
Hopefully the second one will go a bit quicker.

Second mount made and tacked into place.
This is now welded so all that is left to do is the speedo drive retaining lug and the mudguard mounts

Wasn't the extra work worth it though Dave -they look like original factory castings. Very nice.

I think so  :)  Though when finished I doubt anyone will notice. Have just realised this little project, has taken over 5 months so far. I've been doing other stuff as well but I'm glad I didn't set any sort of deadline on this.

Ain't that the truth, I always envisage my project timescales in years, Dave! must be careful there though as I'm cracking on to a stage where there may soon be a shortage of the "readies", time that is, oh well........................" always look on the bright........" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.Morrag

The missus said I should clear out the junk and reduce my vehicles soon. The reason being, she doesn't want to have to do it when I'm dead  :o

Mudguard mounts. Just simple steel tubes with a 1/2" radius dimple filed into them, to match the forks. Due to their position mid span, each of these is welded on with just a couple of very heavy tack welds.

It's a scary thought Dave, but eventually we're all gonna reach the point where we've got more projects than years left!

Internal throttle fitted and decided on twin countersunk retaining screws. One will be hidden by the twist grip, the other by the mirror clamp. Also welded in the cable guide tube and the risers followed by a coat of etch primer. No changing anything now.

Amazing work ....

Lookin' jolly nice Dave. How did you create the raised shapes on the risers?

Difficult to describe so I've done a quick sketch. Not very accurate but should show what I mean.
The upright tube (1" OD 3.25mm wall) is cut away to fit the horizontal tube (1"ID 4mm wall) but offset enough to leave enough material to shape then hammer over the top. Then you simply weld all the way around and finish shape with a file.

Even your quick sketch is better than the stuff I make! That gives a lovely cast look to it. Nice.

I know that's not true and the pop & xs prove it.
Mounted up the headlight today and it looked awful  >:( plus decided the bulbs and temp gauge probably wouldn't last too long bouncing up and down.
Change in direction and now the headlight is high mounted from a new stirrup bolted to the top yoke. No pic yet as the camera is dead but a pic of a favourite bike shows the sort of positioning I now have. The bracket on the forks will be used for the horn. Some wont like it but I don't care  ;D

I used to have a biking buddy who always built his chops with high mounted headlights like that. It became his signature style. On some bikes, particularly more vintage styled ones, it just really works.

I would have thought it would be horrible but it takes the line right through - lovely!

If you have not already seen them elsewhere, these pics might be of interest, Dave.

Are those my photos? That was at the Southampton MAG bike show, at the Cricketers pub in Eastleigh a couple of years ago. Nicely built trike. I think it was featured in one of the magazines shortly after.

Probably were Mr M, as I can't remember where they came from!, but they might interest Dave re. Headlamp position etc.so......................... Morrag

Yep, have seen before but thanks morrag. The Indian leafer forks are lovely and lend themselves well to trikes as you can change the short bottom links so instead of being trailing they are leading, pushing the axle line forwards, reducing the trail. The leaf spring needs changing, as this is normally being pulled down and is now being pushed up. Thought about doing leafer forks instead of girders, but because of the bottom links, they have the same problems as springers when used in a trike. Maybe with wide enough pivots  :-\.. :-\.. :-\.. :).. ;D
Perhaps next year   :D

Incorporated the brake splitter mounting into the lower shock /horn mount. Will need longer hose from mc to splitter and already have the shorter ones in stock to fit between splitter and calipers.
Assembled as far as I need, to check everything is ok prior to stripping down and painting. Would like to find a more appropriate mudguard, but this will do until the right one comes along
Still not sure about the mounting of the front indicators. No matter where I put them the look totally out of place >:(  Thinking of converting the sidelights and fitting small high intensity led sidelights into the pickup bed tubes that at present have the white hand holds fitted into.  It's either that or mount the indicators to the handlebars :-\

Totally changes the look of the trike doesn't it. Does the suspension work O.K?

Either side of the headlight?  Reckon that would look good.

As I have already said Dave,those girders are a cracking piece of motorcycle engineering, but personally, I prefer the look with its original forks on your trike, but it's purely my taste, Morrag

Suspension seems to work fine. Took it down the road (no front brakes or mudguard fitted), didn't go far or at any speed but it didn't bounce around or bottom out, the steering was also a lot lighter.
Tried that  :-\ recon the question of indicators is now irrelevant
Funny you should say that.
 Have just spent 3 hours doing absolutely nothing but look at it. Conclusion is I'm not happy with the overall result  >:(
I can remember a while ago saying that I wasn't sure. Now I am. So for now it looks like I will be reverting back to the teles until I come up with something better.
 Oh well it was fun trying :)
 I will keep them just in case I decide on a new build that will suit them more, such as the steampunk trike my daughter has been bugging me about.

What a shame. They look nice, but are not as 'chunky' as the rest of the machine. Are you sure the look wont improve with painting?

Possibly but I doubt it. I still like the girders but when you stand back and look at the whole trike, it somehow doesn't work for me. I think the problem lies in the fact that the rest of the trike is quite compact, but there is a huge space between the front down tubes and the forks.  If the rad was fitted in front of the down tubes as originally designed, it would partially fill this area and also visually open up space around the engine. When for expediency sake I fitted the teles, I felt that it would look better with the rad fitted inside the frame.
I'm not upset about this at all.  It's been fun, I now know that I can and they may still get used  :)

Directly comparing the two pics - yes, the original is better!  Oh well, nothing ventured....

Well, no doubt, like myself so many times in the past, they will go on the "comein'andy" stockpile Dave, and if not, how about as a feature over the fireplace!! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;).....and the second pic, that's definitely the package.........Morrag

Brave decision Dave -most of us would've made do with them after all that work. But if you're not happy with them, they'll never be right. I think painting them black would've helped a lot, but as the slogan says: "I built it to please me, not you".
 

yeah paint them with chunky paint  lol i think they look well on there but tis your baby

I recon if you dropped the bars down, and moved the headlight down in front of the girders / above the mudguard you would get beck to a sleek look. As many have said though, we build for ourselves not others. Whatever you decide, "go with throttle up"

Air scoop at front may fill that gap.. Both look stunning to me

a wee "chin fairing" or tool roll maybe

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. :)
I am going to paint them, if nothing else, it will stop them going rusty while they wait for another build and it means I have a spare set of forks  :D. May or may not refit to Deliverance to see what they look like then. It's not as if it takes very long but I will not fit something that I feel is detrimental.
Ho-hum

Not given up on the girders quite yet. A couple of small alterations and they may look OK. Decided to bring the axle line back a little, gives slightly more trail than ideal but still less than with the teles. Also found a front mudguard shape I really like and that feel would suit. Trouble is it's on an early Indian. Chances of finding one, zero. So it looks like I may have to make one. Have started on the paint but it's a bit cold in the shed.

I like them in black -look more "factory".

glad you not give up they will suite the trike as anything hand made in my book is the best option so long as it works
and you get to say yes i made that .... rather than oh not a bad deal on ebay ??? no brainer mate stick at it and get some mile on it
thats still gotta be the deciding factor 

we'll see :)
Tried out a high gloss brush on enamel on the top yoke. Very impressed with the shine unfortunately seems to take weeks to fully cure.
 For days the wife has complained, that she could smell paint around the house. ???
 I said nothing. :-X  ;)
Then she found the fork components on a radiator, hidden by a table. :o >:(
 Oooops BUSTED  ::) ;D

The things us men do thinking we can outsmart the wife's and they still catch us  ;D

Try the airing cupboard, covered by a box marked " Not to be opened until Xmas!" :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Morrag..Well that's what I did a few minuits ago!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 ;D Have you stamped "Olds" into the links Dave? Nice.

Nope.
 Letters are raised, not stamped in. Difficult to show in a pic. as they are quite small.
I know they may not get used, but......

very nice ...go on then spill the beans,how'd you do that?

 Not saying. Got to keep a few secrets  ;)
Bottom yoke is now finished, before it was just tacked together and everything has been painted.
Just need to do the front mudguard and yet another headlamp mounting. Once these are done will try it all on the trike again.

looks really good ON be a shame not to use it

I really like, and prefer, the girders , looks 'earlier' style than the teles. Skirted indian front guard and sorted :)

 :)
Trying to make an early Indian style front mudguard 1937-39. Skirted but not as heavily as the 1940 on ones, but with the sides stepped out slightly. First attempt did not go well. So bad I didn't even take any pics. Just beat it to death with a lump hammer.  :P
Oh well never mind  :)

Dave, a steel "trailer" mudguard, suitably modified with skirts might just do the job, you can get 17" and even 18" types, so, give then a good "lookin' 'at", might just be what you need!! Morrag

Thanks. It's not the mudguard itself that's the problem. It was the wired, rolled edges to the skirts that I messed up. Will try again with a plain folded over edge.
Found a repro mudguard in the states..$425 + shipping + taxes. :o That's about $400 + shipping etc. than I'm willing to pay.
Still it's more fun to try to make something yourself.

Dave, I can't believe you could build anything ugly enough to be beaten to death with a hammer if you tried!
If you get really stuck, I thoroughly recommend Darren at Brooklands Bodycraft in Oxford.


http://brooklandsbodycraft.co.uk/index.html

He handmade the cycle guards on my Pop & my bike. They're aluminium with wired edges.

Oh I find it quite easy ;D
Thanks for the link Andy, and I know he does good work, but I'm sticking with the, if I can't do it myself then it don't get done philosophy

Looks like a part made Origami swan to me.
I understand the philosophy entirely ol' chap.

This one I didn't feel the need to smash up. Not perfect but good enough.
Rolled, wired, beaded, lower edge. Except I don't have any rolls so it's hammered. Top edge is folded over, more at the back than the front and will give a tapering step to the sides.
Had to apply a little heat to straighten things up a bit.

Nice!   :)

 :)
Finished the other side the other side, welded it up and I managed not to turn it into a pretzel. Mounting brackets will have to wait of course.

Fair play, you are a talented fellow

Wow, that looks impossible to make

I need a pair just like that for my 3 wheeler,Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

 :) Not making any more. My hands are cut to shreds. I hate sheet metalwork.
Looks better in the pic than reality and will need a skim of filler in places, to cover the hammer marks etc. Main thing is I'm really happy with the shape. Even if I don't use the girders this mudguard is going on the trike. Being longer and wider at the rear will stop A lot of crud hitting the rad.

Just kiddin' Dave, honest............... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D..Morrag

superb works ON  :o am constantly amazed by what you make  ;).

Good job that so difficult to do!  8)