Manky Monkey Motors

Now I know we don't do politics as such but I would really like to find info, without the political spin, regarding staying in or leaving the EU. Not easy but there must be facts and figures somewhere. The only place I have found so far is 'The Euro Probe' which is interesting but does have an obvious slant. Has anyone else been trying to decide and managed to locate some useful material. If you have, can you point me to it. PM me if you prefer.
Cheers, JJ  :)

As I see it, there is no definitive answer to, In or Out, as nobody really knows what the long term effects will be, either way, and the projected profit & Loss columns also appear beyond the comprehension of mere mortals, including politicians. However, if one wishes to draw the conclusions from a purely racist/people biased stance, well.....that for ones own conscience I suppose ??? ??? ??? ??? ???Morrag..ps please note my opening comment. "As I see it!!"

I have always been pro Europe, but now I'm not so sure, This big brother attitude doesn't sit good with me. Some one else said the other evening, imagine if Trump, Putin and Boris get in power, which maddo will push the button first?

I'm happy to vote out, europes affected my life way too much, 2 redundancys cos of eu meddling, and I don't like the way all these unelected higher powers are growing,
I don't like the fact we are gonna let (buy in )turkey in either, as that wont stop any migrant crisis, imo..and I honestly thing Europe could be on the way out, (Germanys making more enemys within Europe than anyone, trying to order them about.)
I think Britain would be wealthier without, trade deals with Europe arnt that good nor big, I know a few firms I deal with look out of Europe, and are very very successful, alternative markets ARE there,
all I can say is watch other news channels outside of Britain, ours are very biased compared,,,,,the facts of out? a lot of unknowns, but
i just cant see how it would be any worse,,,,,staying in? the facts are blurred by camerons lot, and some not even allowed to be published, makes you wonder why,,,,
most of  the politicians who want to stay wont have a secured gravy train job, and may just have to do something themselves for once,,,
its full of dirty tricks this in or out, and tbh, i think we deserve the truth to vote, but we arnt gonna get it, shame on the government for allowing this, and indeed taking part in the lies and spin, ...invoking fear seems to be their main way of getting us to stay in, as above, big brother, and he,s getting bigger

but that's my opinion of course..

I'm not a politically inclined person, but I do remember being peeved at being too young to vote in the original EEC referendum, which would and did affect my future.
The EEC now the EU has changed so much, from something that was supposed to allow free trade across a few member nations, to the all encompassing behemoth  that it is now, it's high time that we had a say.
 Which way would be best long term, I have no idea, so apart reading as much as I can, on the day it might still just come down to gut feeling.

I think, this time, everyone should be made to vote,
voting is often not true due to the lethargy of voters

Cheers for that.

I found some interesting Q&As on the BBC website. Maybe I'm just being thick but some bits I didn't understand.

Q)
Who will be able to vote?
A)
British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals living abroad who have been on the electoral register in the UK in the past 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election. Citizens from EU countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - will not get a vote.

I don't understand why Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK have a vote when they are not British Citizens. Also I don't understand the last bit. Does it mean Ireland, Malta and Cyprus get to vote?

Q)
How long will it take for Britain to leave the EU?
A)
The minimum period after a vote to leave would be two years. During that time Britain would continue to abide by EU treaties and laws, but not take part in any decision-making, as it negotiated a withdrawal agreement and the terms of its relationship with the now 27 nation bloc. In practice it may take longer than two years, depending on how the negotiations go.

That's a long time. So we still have to pay in and follow rules but no longer get to make decisions? You couldn't make this up!  :o ??? ??? So if other Countries join as proposed they would still have access to our money and our facilities. One of the reasons many are voting Out. That will be a shock!

The term "on the electoral register" is the key to this question, ie They either are or have been, registered electors of the UK during that period, and this has been true for many years, and includes General Elections. As regards the second item, Any arrangement as complex as the membership of this "Club" must be, will take some time to unravel, and make new deals outside the community, so 2 years would not seem excessive, but even if we leave, we shall still have to conform with all relevant rules and regs. of the Market, if we wish to trade with Europe after any exit. Again, that's my interpretation of these two points...,. ??? ??? Morrag

Just a personal view,make of it what you will. I am a noted Eurosceptic, and in the Common market vote of 1975 I voted NO. As a political activist at the time I realized that this would not just be a common trading partnership,but the start of a federal state of Europe. I can still see the smug grin on Ted Heaths face after the vote,as he and others knew where this was headed. This was hardly a glorious victory less than 500,000 people out of a population 57 million voted. Apathy at its greatest. All that aside in this Referendum I will still be voting NO. Not because of the migration or other media spin, I just don't trust an organisation that has never manage to get a firm of accountants to balance the books and sign them off.The whole system is corrupt. A gravy train of Euro MP's that have no teeth, All policys are made by the committee commisoners (how long a Banana should be and what shape) then sent out to the MP's. Who are allowed to tinker around the edges a little, but can not change any of the core policy. But still get pay and expenses. All these people have a vested interest in us staying in.I think that coming out will not hurt us to much,we import far more than export to Europe,these people will not stop trading with the UK,they will probably be more than willing to make trade agreements with us. As for standing alone and not being a player in the EEC, The days of Empire are over we are not really a world power any more, Germany call most of shots Merkel ( Hitler with lipstick) is the big cheese,they couldn't get us through the front door, but they managed to sneak round the back. The 13 billion we give them each year could be better spent elsewhere.As for losing jobs if we come out nobody has been able to tell me where these jobs have been created. But I can tell you where some of ours have gone. Just one case as an illustration, well known Razor maker Gillette closed two factorys one up north one in Isleworth Middlesex.Both profitable 400 million a year net. Get a 10 million Euro grant and build a new factory in Poland move production there, with lower overheads and wages increase profit by 7 times. Great for the Poles more power to them. But it left a couple thousand or so people without jobs with children to bring up mortgages to pay and food to put on the table.How much profit is enough.The EU takes our jobs and gives us it unemployed.   Oops sorry folks rant over. Its just that I dislike career politicians especially corrupt ones

There will be a great deal to sort out and unravel before we can leave, but that's all part and parcel and will be worked out. Some of our major utility companies are ultimately owned by the French, so its going to take time.  We are a prosperous country and as such, businesses across the EU are going to want to continue dealing with us, as we will with them, they wont cut of their noses so to speak. Great Britain geographically stands beside the EU, we should once again stand beside the EU politically and independently, not inside the EU being told what to do!! ..........   OOPs am I doing politics  :-X :-X
 

Don't worry about the major companies, they will carry on as usual being in or out isn't going to make a lot of difference. We have Japanese,Chinese  Indian companies. The global markets drive these.Look at Port Talbot steel works,being in the EU makes know difference to them.Tata steel own them and most of there production is Azerbaijan,low wages no health and safety if its to expensive to make in Wales make it somewhere else.Being in the EEC makes no difference to them. 

Don't normally do the political bit so here's my answer purely based on the news and papers. Definately out as a man in Brussels dictates our contributions, imigration is a big issue for many people but as a country we have no say in how many are allowed in due to us being in the EU. How much money per year do we put into the EU? Greece as an example. Many other countries thrive that aren't in the EU and lets be honest here since we joined where has the car industry gone? or the steel? or the mining? or the military? or the trains, gas, electric etc. The right to be British and believe in the British way of life has been removed, it's time we got it back.

Many interesting thoughts on the issue, however, some are more "spin" orientated than factual, perhaps :D, "..you know who you are!!", however, let us not forget the effect of Globalisation on the European Market, a huge factor in itself. Immigration, well only Ireland and us are countries that are still outside the Schengen area, and there fore still have control of their own borders. Personally, a multi tiered membership, where countries could join at various levels of involvement would seem sensible, so that the spectre of Federalism, that seems to frighten so many, would diminish! me, I'm still undecided but one observation is certainly true, when the time comes Use Your VOTE! or forever hold your peace! >:( >:( >:(.Morrag

Lots of different opinions on this subject,some based on the very biased reports in newspaper and tv news programmes. but there are a lot of books and articles written by many eminent people,read both sides of the argument then decide.Some people will stick their heads in the sand,some will just sit on the fence until they overbalance one way or the other  :P...."and you know who you are!!" A lot of the things that we lost where nothing to do with the EU,the loss of the car industry was really down too the unions, unreasonable demands,to many strikes. Mining was something different all together,Thatcher really had it in for the Miners and was going to make an example of them. It seemed at the time she was hell bent on closing the whole industry down. Do go out and vote,whether you are for or against, don't let it turn into farce like the last one.

I never knew that. I was 15 at the time and one of my O Levels was Commerce. I thought I knew it all and I thought the Common Market was a good idea but I remember my paternal Grandfather thought it was a terrible idea. I thought he was out of touch but bearing in mind what it has turned into, a behemoth he could never even have envisaged at that time, I think perhaps he was right. He must have realised even then that it would become something else and Britain was being misled.

.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cut from a German newspaper and translated:   Coming soon to a country near you !
*A female physician in Munich,Germany sends a message to the
World . . . .*
*'Yesterday,at the hospital, we had a meeting about how the
situation here and at the other Munich hospitals is
unsustainable. Clinics cannot handle the number of migrant
medical emergencies, so they are starting to send everything
to the main hospitals.*

*Many Muslims are refusing treatment by female staff and we
women are now refusing to go among those migrants!
Relations between the staff and migrants are going from bad
to worse. Since last weekend, migrants going to the
hospitals must be* *accompanied by police with K-9 units.*

*Many migrants have AIDS, syphilis, open TB and many exotic
diseases that we in Europe do not know how to treat. *
*If they receive a prescription to the pharmacy, they
suddenly learn they have to pay cash. This leads to
unbelievable outbursts, especially when it is about drugs
for the children. They abandon the children with pharmacy
staff with the words:  So, cure them here yourselves!
*So the police are not just guarding the clinics and
hospitals, but also the large pharmacies.*

*We ask openly 'where are all those who welcomed the
migrants in front of TV cameras with signs at train
stations?' * *Yes, for now, the border has been closed, but
a million of them are already here and we will definitely
not be able to get rid of them.*

*Until now, the number of unemployed in Germany was 2.2
million. Now it will be at least 3.5 million. Most of these
people are completely unemployable. Only a small minimum of
them have any education. What is more, their women usually
do not work at all. I estimate that one in ten is pregnant.
Hundreds of thousands of them have brought along infants and
little kids under six, many emaciated and very needy. If
this continues and Germany re-opens its borders, I am
going home to the Czech Republic. Nobody can keep me here in this
situation, not even for double the salary back home. I came
to Germany to work, not to Africa or the Middle East!*

*Even the professor who heads our department told us how sad
it makes him to see the cleaning woman, who has cleaned
every day for years for 800 euros and then meets crowds of
young men in the hallways who just wait with their hands
outstretched, wanting everything for free, and when they
don't get it they throw a fit.*

*I really don't need this! But I am afraid that if I
return home, at some point it will be the same in the Czech
Republic. If the Germans, with their systems, cannot handle
this, then, guaranteed, back home will be total chaos..*
*You -  who have not come in contact with these people have
absolutely no idea what kind of badly behaved desperados
these people are,and how Muslims act superior to our staff,
regarding their religious accommodation.*

*For now, the local hospital staff have not come down with
the diseases these people brought here, but with so many
hundreds of patients every day this is just a
question of time.*

*In a hospital near the Rhine, migrants attacked the staff
with knives after they had handed over an 8-month-old on the
brink of death, who they'd dragged across half of Europe for
three months. The child died two days later, despite having
received top care at one of the best paediatric clinics in
Germany. The paediatric physician had to undergo surgery and
the two nurses are recovering in the ICU. Nobody has been
punished - what ???*

*The local press is forbidden to write about it, so we can
only inform you through email. What would have happened to a
German if he had stabbed the doctor and nurses with a knife?
Or if he had flung his own syphilis-infected urine into a
nurses face and so threatened her with infection? At a
minimum he’d have gone straight to jail and later to
court. With these people so far, nothing has
happened -
WHY?*

*And so I ask ... where are all those greeters and receivers
from the train stations? Sitting pretty at home, enjoying
their uncomplicated, safe lives.* *If it were up to me I
would round up all those greeters and bring them here first
to our hospitals emergency ward as attendants ! Then
into one of the buildings housing the migrants, so they can
really look after them there themselves, without armed
police and police dogs, who, sadly today, are in every
hospital here in Bavaria.*

*Is this "situation" coming to your country ???  '      *
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 



 

Years ago when i came out of my apprenticeship i worked in a dairy, making butter and milk powder. The butter department, which i eventuall ended up being responsible for had a massive buttermaking machine, big enough to crawl inside - (which I did once), and a pneumatic boxing line filling 25kilo boxes.
Anyway, we were having real problems with the conveyor weighing scale, which controlled the fine fill top up.
The then manager kept going on and on about these boxes having to be spot on, because they were going to intervention. Intervention, where the hell is that? The butter mountain!!
Helsbels, we gave loads of it to Russia in the end, crazy crazy.
As for in/out, as usual loads of clever people will have different opinions, they'll all tell us lies. Don't expect our own politicians to run us any better - they've made some pretty lousy decisions in the past, so what will change?
As for Boris, don't you think, whatever  he believes, he's playing a smart move? If the vote goes "out" Cameron will resign (whatever he says now), boris will be smug and ready.
If the vote goes "in" what has he lost?
these buggers allways have an eye on the future - hence some of the diabolical decisions of the past....

The degree of scepticism is totally understandable, given the track record of so many politicians, the world over, however, I would be cautious of "Newspaper" articles, albeit translated ones, unless substantiated elsewhere, as there are unscrupulous "hacks" around too, and the source is not necessarily where it appears to emanate from, but, it's all 'grist to the mill', is it not? :P :P..Morrag

Hello Baychimp,

That has been my mantra for decades. I have always said that if a politician advocates something you should always ask yourself the following two questions:

1. What's in it for the politician, or his/her associates? = There is bound to be something.

2. What is it going to cost me?  = You can bet the answer will be 'PLENTY'.

I agree with your previous post as well, where you detailed the voting apathy that prevailed at the time of our joining or not the Common Market.

Another thing that also made me wonder was that all three main parties were for us joining, so I should think that we would be doing so regardless, jaded and suspicious me, never. ::)

I remember watching a Conservative MP by the name of Sir Gerald Nabarro, standing in an orchard, declaring that none of the apples would be acceptable under the Common Market restrictions and he was shouted down by those eager to get us in. We all know who was right as regards that point now.

Like you, I voted against joining, as I couldn't see the sense in joining a group of six countries and forgoing our trading position with the Commonwealth. The free movement of goods could have been achieved by utilising a trade agreement wherein the countries concerned introduced systems to make it easier.

My biggest bugbear was that we would be getting yet another layer of politicians and bureaucrats. We already had enough layers of government. Just think of the layers that already existed, from Parish Councils, Town Councils, Borough Councils and County Councils. Add to this various other Metropolitan councils, such as the one Boris is in charge of and is trying to expand, until the boundaries of London cover at least the whole of the South of England. Like all politicians, ‘Give him an inch’ and he wants the whole country.

Of couse we must not forget the biggest buch of jokers at the Palace of Westminster, with it's 655 wasters and the expense fiddlers and the posh lot in the house across the way. Along with them you have all the government deparments and the Quangoes that they create to add even more to the taxpayers burden.

I am already planning to leave this country so really it shouldn’t worry me but it does. I am sick and tired of those that run this country into the ground for their own gain. This country has been asset stripped to the point where it is virtually a shell. All our major manufacturers and utilities have been taken over by foreign concerns. It is all controlled by foreign business and multinationals who don’t give a fig for national boundaries and pay little to no tax on their massive profits whilst the working people pay through the nose.

The people of this country are either too brow beaten or too stupid/cowardly/lazy to get up on their hind legs and do something about it. Where is the British fighting spirit and sense of fair play? Perhaps they will be naffed off enough to get out and vote this time and get us out of the flippin’ EU. This of course presupposes that they do not have any major football matches on or maybe an omnibus episode of Coronation/Eastenders/Home and Away/TOWIE or some other drivel or they won’t bother getting off the sofa.

Sorry but I am getting too wound up now so I will put away the soapbox and go and lie down in a darkened room for a bit.

All the Best,

Rob54.

Fishing industry down the pan.

Farmers paid under CAP (Common Agri Policy) rules, eight billion paid into Europe, four million back.

Every month, all off the staff, MEPs and hangers-on move the France from Brussels for a week. Costs a fortune.

As already mentioned, EU accounts not signed off for nearly twenty years.

Lucid, and to the point Rob, difficult to disagree with.....mmmm ??? ??? Morrag

Disregard. Double post. Dunno what happened there.

Gerald Nabarro - wow that is a name from the past. I had forgotten all about him until you mentioned him. Remember him having a car with the reg NAB 1. I always thought his name sounded very James Bondish!  :)

Hello JayJay,

If I remember correctly, he had NAB 1 though to about NAB 6. The first was on his car which I think may have been a Jag, then his wife's car, all the way through to a couple of two-wheeled runabouts that they used.

I believe he was ex-RAF, had a big old handlebar 'tash and a booming voice. He was one of the few Conservatives I had any time for.

Say what you like about the politicians of the time, they at least had individual characters and were not the clones that we get nowadays, regardless of the party they are in. They are all OxBridge ejumucated, as in schooled in selfishness and greed and the majority of them have finances that preclude them from identifying with most of us. >:(

As for old 'Just call me Dave' who insists we are 'All in it together', I can't really take him serious while he has about £50 million in the bank and keeps dodging questions about offshore accounts. >:(

All the Best,

Rob54.

just had this through the letter box.

huh,picture won,t download,it was EU the facts,i,ll try again later.

Gerald Nabarro was our MP when I was a teenager and yes he was all those things you said but he'd have got along pretty well with Dave and his cronies, he had the finances too and lived in a different world from the working plebs! - oh and he had a handshake like a wet fish, I've never forgotten that!

Was this what you have Trevor?

(http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo343/PDSheridan/2016-04-06%2021.30.10_zpsp9udvvsn.jpg) (http://s390.photobucket.com/user/PDSheridan/media/2016-04-06%2021.30.10_zpsp9udvvsn.jpg.html)

(http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo343/PDSheridan/2016-04-06%2021.29.28_zpse0eqp8qs.jpg) (http://s390.photobucket.com/user/PDSheridan/media/2016-04-06%2021.29.28_zpse0eqp8qs.jpg.html)

(http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo343/PDSheridan/2016-04-06%2021.29.57_zpsn0vyqemv.jpg) (http://s390.photobucket.com/user/PDSheridan/media/2016-04-06%2021.29.57_zpsn0vyqemv.jpg.html)

Which organisation did your pamphlet come from?

I've just read the Government is spending over 9 million sending every household a letter on the EU. I have had one from Leave but I haven't read it yet. On the ITV news web site there was a poll asking:

Should the Government spend £9.3m on the pro-Europe campaign?

NO is 91% as I write this. Anyone surprised?

Morning JJ,
There is no name or anything obvious on the leaflet to say who sent it, I just googled the address and find that it is from the offices of the Vote to leave campaign. 

Some people dont like the Daily mail, but this morning they printed an
 article about the latest waste of taxpayers money, and half way down the page there is a rundown of the pros and cons.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3527735/David-Cameron-faces-furious-Tory-backlash-10m-EU-propaganda-mailshot-household-country.html

              yep thats it,thanks.

Hello BikerGran,

My only interest was in what he was saying against joining the Common Market. I know he had money, just like all his kind but it was the argument he put forward that I agreed with. When I saw the evidence of stockpiling and pouring milk down drains, ploughing crops under, I knew the Common Market was not for the common people but only a way of keeping prices artificially inflated to benefit the money boys.

As has been mentioned, the 'Butter Mountains’ were all sold off to the likes or Russia for pennies rather than sell it to the people that subsidised them via the CAP in the first place, we didn't benefit in anyway from the glut. As it was, the CAP really only benefited countries like France who had lots of small farmers and a farming industry that was ideal to milk the system and they did, hand over fist.

We have been the second largest contributor to this undemocratic dictatorship since we joined and have got very little in return, as a country, I don't include those who have grabbed their usual 'pound of flesh' from us as a whole, as they always do. Had the leaches within our system done their jobs and made sure we claimed for all the allowances that we were entitled to instead of leaving it to our farmers/businesses/industries/citizens to wade through all the red tape themselves, we would have fared better. The other countries help sort the various entitlements for their people but the lazy beggars in this country swing the lead all the time.

I am not a fan of the 'Wet fish' handshake either. It seems to be standard with many politicians though. I remember an ex-MP of mine, Peter Bottomly, was the same, another useless.............................I shan't say exactly what I think he is, to spare your blushes and my Mum told me never to swear in front of a lady. :-X

All the Best,

Rob54.

Hello JayJay,

Well, it is only taxpayer's money, so it doesn't count, does it? ::) ;)

They are used to throwing our money away. It's a habit they just can't kick. >:(

I am surprised it is only 91% for the NO vote.

Where is the connection for the vote?

In the interest of democracy I should like to add my vote, though it's a bit late as they have already spent it. Perhaps they should have a second poll asking if we think the Conservative party should re-pay the money from their own party funds. Now that I would like to see.

All the Best,

Rob54.

If any of you feel strongly about this outrage then there is a petition on the gvt web site. People are signing at a rate of 5000 an hour and it already has over 100,000 signatures. On its way to the total number (500,000) who voted in the Common Market vote in 1975!

STOP CAMERON spending British taxpayers’ money on Pro-EU Referendum leaflets.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/116762)

To Rob54
The poll is currently down a bit from where this link takes you:

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-04-06/should-the-government-spend-9-3m-on-the-pro-europe-campaign/ (http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-04-06/should-the-government-spend-9-3m-on-the-pro-europe-campaign/)

Also in that link I saw that some expats who live abroad want to vote,and their case is being heard in the high court. But as in the Scottish referendum Scots living in England and Wales didn't get to vote on Scotland, so it should be for people who opt to live else where.

While the petition is not going to change anything, I signed it as a form of protest.
For Cameron to say that the leaflet represents the 'Governments point of view' is bizarre.
From what I have read, Cameron had to form a committee of pro EU ministers, who sat in secrecy, to give approval to produce and distribute the leaflet at the taxpayers expense. Other Conservative MPs knew nothing of this
This expenditure was never debated in the house as it would have been blocked.

Hello JayJay,

Thanks for the link, will sign it asap.

I have already signed the main government one, in the early hour of this morning. I shall be emailing my MP Kelly Tolhurst as well, as per the option that was offered after my signing was confirmed. I will be explaining to her why her boss (Cameron) is onto a loser and that his explanations in the document are a joke.

In the pamphlet he opens with the ludicrous statement that EU membership brings 'economic security, peace and stability'. I shall remind her that when this country joined it was a major manufacturing one and now we assembly products for other countries (Japan/Nissan/Sunderland for instance). We have a vastly reduced workforce with many jobs going to workers from other EU countries. This may provide economic security to businesses that import their workers from the poorer parts of the EU whilst shunning the home workforce so as to maximise their profits but it does not do so for the British worker, who's standard of living has greatly diminished.

As far as the 'peace' is concerned, perhaps he is forgetting the war in the Balkan states with the 'ethnic cleansing' that took place, although looking at it from a more historic perspective, it could be said to be a precursor to our current and future predicament. It was based on the fear of the Islamic extreme factions that were trying to annex parts of the countries involved to create countries of their own or take over entire countries and make them Islamic. It could be viewed as a microcosm of what some are trying to be implemented now on a grander scale. Perhaps he has also forgotten the war that has been and is being fought on the streets of many of the EU countries. The killing of Lee Rigby, the attack on the French magazine office ‘Je Suis Charlie’, the ‘coffee house attacks’ in France, the recent bombing of the airport and railway, many attacks all over and he talks of peace. I have lost count of the number of times it has been revealed that those involved were on a ‘watch list’ or were known to the security forces (that’s an oxymoron if ever there was one, they provide security for no one). If the government spent time money and effort on targeting those who threaten us, instead of trying to criminalize and monitor the general public as a whole (the snooper’s charter anyone?), perhaps they would be able to stop some of the attacks. They still won’t even use ‘profiling’ to target those most likely to be a threat because of their misguided belief it would infringe the ‘civil rights’ of those they would need to monitor or check on (again, the snooper’s charter anyone?) or perhaps they don’t care about the civil rights of the indigenous people. They prefer to make all our lives a misery whilst wasting resources and effort by introducing ‘knee jerk’ and fake security measures that do nothing to address the problem.

The preposterous statement that it provides stability is discounted by what I have already written. If you couple this with the instability caused by ‘Hitler in a blonde wig’ as I saw her described, using the royal ’WE’ to invite as many as want to come to the EU and ‘WE’ (there’s that word again) will take care of them. It took her far too long to realise and admit she had dropped a ricket, by which time she has opened the floodgates and caused untold misery.
I think they are all running scared that if we vote to leave than the EU is doomed and their gravy train is over. From what I have read, so far Holland, France and even Germany want a referendum of their own. Hopefully we can finally prove to them that the EU is ‘A dead parrot’ and has been for some time.
Sorry to have gone on a bit but I found a new soapbox to replace my old, worn out one. That will teach you to prod me with a stick when I am trying to nap. :o ;) ;D

All the Best,

Rob54

Hello Olds,

It's strange that the government can use these 'underhand' methods. It appears to occur on a regular basis that they hold these little meetings where the chosen few are allowed to plot and scheme. It may be understandable at a time of war when it may be necessary to reduce the possibility of a leak or slowing the decision making process down but not in peace, as Cameron insists we have in his pamphlet. I thought that any such documentation is supposed to include valid points of for and against the proposed referendum and the government's position is to remain neutral. There is nothing stopping the Conservative party from producing their own pamphlet stating their viewpoint but it should be done at their own expense. The people have a right to expect an unbiased and informative document, not a dictat.

All the Best,

Rob54.

Has everybody received their booklet from the Gvt telling us how good staying in the EU is for us? It made me angry because I can't understand how £9.3 million can be spent on a booklet that is very biased to staying in the EU and which purports to come from the Gvt when many representatives of said Gvt do not support that view. 

The waste of money is the worst thing though. DC argues that the Tories' manifesto included educating the people able to vote in the referendum about their choices. Well a partisan booklet does not do that. A booklet setting out the pros and cons of staying in the EU and also explaining the Gvt's plans if a Yes vote is delivered would have been more acceptable even though £9.3 million is a staggering cost but I suppose just sending out polling cards for a General Election is close to that figure. I know, let's get rid of parliament, use the money to give every household a computer and broadband and then let us all vote on everything! True democracy. Pity, but I don't think that would work either.  :(

I am sending my booklet back via second class post to DC saying I believe that he should be personally sanctioned as he gave permission for this partisan booklet to be produced and delivered at great expense to the taxpayer and not telling the truth about it being representative of the current Gvt.

He has used and is still using the so called voice of the Gvt to back staying in the EU when it should be left to the two groups chosen to represent each view.

Rather than the stories of doom and gloom if we leave, which are trying to put the fear of God into voters, I want to hear from the Gvt what their plans would be if the vote is Leave. They should be able to show that they and the Bank of England are prepared for such a vote.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for the day. That's why I also posted a joke, to show I do have a lighter side.
JJ ;D

well camerons tellin us there may be war if we leave, what a w****r.......
I know brexit cant tell us exactly what will happen if we leave,but at least they are not blatantly lying like the in campaign and Cameron,,,
100 yrs ago he would have been killed for treason....
something to be said for the old way isn't there?

The daft thing is the last two wars were started by Megalomaniacs, who managed to usurp power in one country. being in the E.E.C wouldn't stop that.No more than the League of Nations which was founded after the First World War could stop the rise of Hitler and the Second World War.
I would like to think that Europe has enough sense now not to start another War. I'm getting really fed of this endless scaremongering.

Nice to see some recent posts. Saved me going to look for it.  :)

I am definitely in the LEAVE the EU gang now. The bulls**t coming out of Cameron, Osborne and their cronies's mouths now to panic people into remaining is quite shocking. If they believed things would be so bad:
1-
The Gvt wouldn't have given us a choice in the first place - too dangerous to let us plebs decide
2-
Cameron, a few months ago, wouldn't have been willing to leave if he didn't get what he wanted at the EU (and didn't get anyway)

Below is a link to Hansard. It concerns the debate responding to the petition that over 200,000 people signed saying they were angry that Cameron had used over 9million of Taxpayers' money to produce a very biased leaflet to support us staying in the EU.

The debate is quite long but worth the read. It was interesting for me to see two 'local' MPs making some good arguments. The many MPs supporting leaving the EU used the debate to highlight the many questionable points that have been claimed by the Gvt. Not only in the leaflet but also those made since. Particularly hard for them to accept were the claims regarding WW1 and WW2. That people had died for a united Europe rather than the fact they died to free many European countries and protect the United Kingdom, seemed lost on Cameron.

There is a fair bit of humour in the debate which is very one sided due to hardly any Remain supporters being there. The Gvt minister who had to be there to answer for the Gvt was likened to St Sebastian tied to a tree being hit with many arrows! Another was whether we should expect the plagues of Egypt or the apocalypse if we were to leave the EU. Anyway have fun. I found it quite enlightening the way these MPs from different political parties managed to cover a lot of key areas by batting the floor to each other and providing information I hadn't heard before.

One more point, the bias of the Media is unbelievable. I cannot understand why more is not being done about that. It is not only sickening but quite scary. I know the Beeb has long been seen as biased but the rest of them too!  ???

JJ >:(

https://hansard.digiminster.com/commons/2016-05-09/debates/1605098000001/EUReferendumLeaflet (https://hansard.digiminster.com/commons/2016-05-09/debates/1605098000001/EUReferendumLeaflet)

The Hansard link is worth reading (or at least a quick look at) and as JJ says gives some info that has not been openly reported elsewhere, such as the massive trading deficit we have with member countries in the EU campared to the trading surplus we have with the rest of the world. ( Germany however makes a huge trade surplus within the EU in 2014). Or that the EU will become more centralised in the near future.

In my reading of all things EU I came across the term TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership). I had never heard of it but what I read got me worried so I looked it up. This appears to be the reason the referendum was moved forward a year and not 2017 as was originally forecast.

Anyway it is interesting reading whatever your view on the EU. This is just one link I found useful but there is plenty on TTIP if you know to look for it. A lot of people, like me until now, have never heard of it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html)

i,v studied this subject so much that i am now totaly confused ,,, ::) ::) ::)

Me again. I forgot to say that a lot of people are saying take a pen and mark whichever box you are selecting with said pen. It is allowed. I did check. Perhaps I've always been too trusting with that pencil.  ???

The following are both allowed with the latter one quite surprising. I didn't know that!

Do I have to mark my cross with a pencil on a string?
No, if you prefer you can use a pen, even if it's your own. While a cross is usually called for, you could theoretically mark the box with a tick instead. The important thing is that your voting intention is clear.

I've made a mistake and voted for the wrong person. Can I vote again?
Yes, providing you haven't already posted your ballot paper in the box. Return to the desk and tell staff what has happened. They'll be able to cancel your ballot paper and issue you with a new one.

Have you ever studied what happens when you attend the polling station? When you go in a line is put through your name, a ballot slip is removed and the person next authenticates the slip, as there is a registered number on the back, that slip is issued to your name, you go off and vote, secretly, anonymously in that little booth and fold your secret vote and post it in the box. However, big brother is watching. They can trace that vote back through the paperwork to you. I asked about this at the polling station and the Labour candidate was the only one who confirmed that this could happen, but its unlikely that they would trace it back. So, why do it? Much huffing and puffing but no definite response. 

I'm not the only awkward one then.  :)

Years ago this process really got me angry and I did the same as you. Same mealy-mouthed responses. In this coming election I won't be too bothered though. I think it will be obvious what I am voting for. Using my pen of course.  8)

Take a quill and a pot of ink, sign your name in the box, go on, you know it makes sense  ;)

I've been a polling clerk, and I asked about this - the reason for it is that in case of any suspected fraud it can be checked.  They say it wouldn't be used for anything else but I don't think any of of us trust the government that much any more (any government, of any party!). 

BG thanks for clearing that up. I'm just being a grumpy old man, I'm practising for a few months time when it becomes official  :D Just been told by the job centre to stay away unless I want to join the post office ! Told the girl I have contacts in high places in the post office  ;) seems its agency work, zero hours contract and they cannot get enough people, wonder why ??

When Mike was on the agency there was only one place he refused to go back to - guess where?

For some years now I have used a postal vote, as, it takes care of possible illness or holiday clashes, but more importantly, you can study the often multiple voting forms/options in the comfort of your own home, and deliberate at length, and accordingly....works for me!! ???

Just the type of thread I've been looking to reply to.........

So, just a random comment thrown out there for your opinions.
In the real true world after June 23rd and the leave campaigners have the result that they want, do you honestly think that the government will let us leave? You will never know the true result. Me sceptical, never!!

That is a very good point

I see that Europe can and probably will Veto it. I'm still sat on the fence, waiting to be convinced, I have always been Pro Europe now I'm not so sure, BUT, I'm not sure what will happen if we opt out.

You couldn't possibly be suggesting that our totally trustworthy government, comprising of honest, upright and noble citizens might actually lie to us.
Such a thing would be unheard of. The fact that WMD's were never found after the Iraq war doesn't mean they lied. Or that all the money claimed in bogus misunderstood expenses by MP's could be construed as dishonest.
This is Britain and things like that couldn't possibly happen.
.
.
.
.
 Or could they ?

Quite..........................

Oh, there's far more than just those couple of things

I would like more detail about leaving. I want facts without the hyperbole. I want to know what this Gvt has planned for us when there is a Leave vote. What are they putting in place to take us though the period of change.

The Gvt could actually turn around and say in their better judgement we should stay but if they did I think there would be an uprising. Why ask us and then ignore us.

I definitely want to leave now because I just can't face being tied to people who make up ridiculous laws, who swallow up money with minimal evidence of where it is going and who cannot be fired by us. We might moan about our crooked lot but we can change them for another crooked lot if we are not happy with them plus we also have faces and names for them. In the EU, most of the law makers are faceless and nameless.

The Leave party/group have a video on Youtube. It is 70 mins long but interesting. Well I enjoyed it.  :) It is well put together and it explained things, especially trade, quite clearly.

The Leave video:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0 (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0)

To be fair, the remain video is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkSf7XSr2CI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkSf7XSr2CI)

Plus don't forget TTIP. Please read about it if you don't all ready know. Very worrying.

JJ :)

I read about  TTIP..very interesting..all I know is whatever I say or do won't make much difference to the Grand scheme of things ? But I listened to the Jeremy Vine show on radio 2 today..and he had one person from each EU country on his show today (28 people ) all living and working in the UK..all agreeing that we should STAY IN...it was great to hear how everybody got on with each other despite political differences ?..made me reconfirm my dream of how it should be on this planet ..

Whatever I say whatever I do won't won't make a difference. That's just what they want you to think, going out to vote does make a difference,getting involved does make a difference. They want you to be apathetic and sit on your rear end at home. We need to upset the Grand Plan.As for the the 28 people from the E.U that want us to stay in they have a vested interest in us doing that. Most of the other countries have raging unemployment! Spain's youth unemployment alone is running at 45.50% that's why so many work in Britain. I have nothing against these people but when it took 2 1/2 years for one son to get a run of the mill job and 3 years for the other maybe if we didn't free movement then they might stand more chance of advancement.
Just to put it into context the third largest French city as of 2012 was LONDON. 500,000 plus.

What annoys me is You have to apply to vote,
If you don't apply, Then yours goes in as a no vote.

You only have register to vote if you are not on the normal Electoral roll. If you are registered to vote in Local or National elections you will be sent a Polling card. This is a popular misconception that you have to apply. I think it is a ruse to get people who are not on the Rolls and who generally don't vote or can't be bother to go out and vote.

Oh just reread your post and realised the 28 are all here! I thought they had brought in a rep from each country so they could say how the EU worked there.

On a net basis (paid in minus paid out) we are the second largest contributer after Germany to the EU. Of course other countries don't want us to leave. We are subsidising many of their 28 countries. Poland has had record payments to increase their growth and employment. Well they been having that for a while but it obviously isn't working that well or there wouldn't be so many Polish people seeking work elsewhere.

If you wish to vote remain that is your choice but we cannot take the view that our vote won't make any difference. This is not like a local or general election, we definitely must make our vote count as we will have to live with the decision for a long time. Mind you the way the EU is going with spiralling spending and accounts that have not been checked and signed off for at least a decade it wouldn't surprise me if it imploded.

Please think again about voting to remain in the EU, Stinkey but of course I respect your right to vote how you want to.

I have to say I have read more about the EU lately than I did the EEC when it was part of my studies at school for two years. I have looked at past figures and current figures and how the EU has grown in that time. It is frightening how something can become so big and make so many decisions about so much money and so much legislation without any accountability.

I am a Royalist to a degree and proud of the UK (in particular England where I was born) and what it has achieved.  I want to carry on being proud of it but I think that time has come and gone in its current situation.
JJ :)

P.S.
I was replying to Stinkey I didn't realise Baychimp and Hunter had posted. Sorry if I repeat what they have said.  :)

Of cvourse they thought we should stay in - because if we leave we could (if we wished to) chuck them out, and they'd rather stay here!

Most of us who want to leave have nothing against the people who want to come here - it's just a general feeling that we are FULL UP!
And we want to have control of our own country.

My feeling is, lets get out of the EU monster first, THEN do something about the monster that is our current government!

It's a radio programme, and that particular one has no idea what it is talking about. Were you listening to the part about driverless cars? Absolutely no one had the slightest idea what it was all about, and that included the expert in road safety. They broardcast as much as they want you to know, either that or it is so badly reserched that they don't find any of the real information on the subject. Had a long chat with Kev about it after, he does know what it's all about..

The impartiality of the BBC is a thing of the past.It is now a mouth piece for which ever Government is in power. It reports rumor.conjecture and very little truth. It was bolstered up with the Spin Doctors of the left and right who slant most of these Jeremy Vine type programmes to suit there own political agendas.

He,he nothing like politics to stir up the blood huh gang ?
I listened to the JV show while I was in my workshop rubbing down filler on my trike chassis,I tend to retreat into my shed to ponder things in my life ? I had just received a letter from my heart specialist informing me my condition had worsened and he wants to see me soon ?
As for JV he makes me laugh because he's a bit of a twat who isn't streetwise at all and I don't take serious..just because I found the idea of everybody getting on as nice we all know it's not going to happen in our life times ? I don't believe at any point of my post it indicates which way I'm voting ? But I am definitely sending in my postal vote...

That's a bugger about your heart Stinkey - can they fix it or treat it?  Spose you won't know that till you see the man, keeping 'em crossed for you!

I have been pondering all of this and reading everyones input with interest.
As I consider myself non political I have found the subject really heavy going and the arguments (you may want to insert rhetoric instead) for and against both compelling and interesting in and out of the forum, but all seem to counter each other or simply say the opposite.
I and Mrs Dslam have decided that we are out unless we can be persuaded otherwise.

In theory this shouldn't be about politics, the problem is the pm and chancellor and their whipped in cronies seem set on quoting guesswork and supposition as fact. What does that make them? Blatant liars of course.
I dont like liars, they waste what precious time i have left on this planet, not worth listening to...

I agree, we have to rely on guesswork!  I never wanted in, I can't see it's done a lot of good (I'm not going to preach about the whys and wherefores) so I shall vote out.  Seems to me it's as good as any other way of deciding.

And everyone else's way of deciding is just as valid too - THAT's democracy!

it's a problem iv had all my life BG..knew I'd need an OP eventually ? Just one of several health issues iv got..thanks for your concern x
Politicians I don't trust them but don't lose sleep over anything they do/say ?
Politics  the same thing..I'm to laid back to worry about just about everything now, when I think of all the people who've been on this planet before me..they all had dreams/aspirations/worries/problems etc..and guess what they lived and they died ? Another generation came along and had the same stuff in their lives ? On and on it goes...we as a species will most likely die off through WAR/decease /disaster and the planet will carry on ..I cannot do anything about immigration/terrorism/taxes/global warming..but I can enjoy some of mans modern technology /comforts while I'm on this earth and will tinker in my workshop as long as possible..and on the 24th of June I'm sure all of us here will be fine come what may the day before ?

That's more or less what I say to Mike - he's addicted to watching the news on TV - I tell him it won't make any difference whether he watches it or not!

Interesting programme on BBC earlier.  Jeremy Paxman looking at the EU. Lots of rolling of eyes from him. Looked at the history of the EEC, Maastricht Treaty and its development since.

If you can get it on iplayer or by other means it is worth watching. It surprised me how it was leaning towards leaving and on the BBC too!  There is a lot of info on the EU referendum on the Open University website. I haven't read it yet but I would imagine it will be fairly balanced. I hope.  ???

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/so-what-eu-referendum-everybody-talking-about (http://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/so-what-eu-referendum-everybody-talking-about)

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/the-uks-eu-referendum-or-out (http://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/the-uks-eu-referendum-or-out)

JJ  :)

Definately worth watching. I think that it was the most informative, unbiased programme on the facts about the EU that has been on the television or in the newspapers. Good on you Paxo

What they told Norway would happen if they didn't join.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-UbT0g9A8c

Cheers Hunter.  That was interesting.  Trouble was I then went down the rabbit hole with lots of other EU related videos including an interesting one on the European Stability Mechanism or ESM. At the moment I don't think the UK is part of it but that could easily change.

Got to watch a few debates too which included Nigel Farage and Dan Hannon. Both spoke very well. Informed and passionate.  One of these was organised by the Spectator. Quite a long video but at the end the audience voted. Still a fair few who were undecided but the Leaves won the vote and the audience sounded fairly young.

Many Swedes are not happy with the EU and I think they are hoping the UK will lead the way so others can follow and exit the EU.

In the Paxman programme I mentioned in another post, it turns out the EU has built an EU Museum/Expo so people can go along and learn all about the EU. That building cost £100 million. That's on top of all the other buildings in Brussels and Strasbourg that the EU and all its components work from. You couldn't make it up!  :'(

And the auditors haven't signed off the accounts for about 12 years or something like that - any business wouldn't be allowed to keep trading!

It's estimated that the cost of the monthly "de-camp" from Brussels to Strasburg, which according to the EU "Charter" which cannot be amended,and is the only place that voting on various EU acts, laws and directives may take place, costs the taxpayers of the EU...100Million Euros, EACH YEAR!!!.......... ??? ??? ??? ???, it seems things were reasonable until Maastrict, when the slide started! Morrag

I just sat and watched the full Brexit film..learnt a few new things ?

Cor, it's surprising what you find when you go looking.

Directly from the EU so no slant from the Leave side. It's called the The Five Presidents' Report: Completing Europe's Economic and Monetary Union. This link takes you to a pdf file. The contents page alone is worth reading. I tried to copy just that for you but with my software it wasn't allowed.

Their press release at the time can be found at:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5240_en.htm (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5240_en.htm)

It looks like the above web page is using fixed frames which might make it difficult to read. There is a pdf file accessible for that as well.

The actual report pdf file:
https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf (https://ec.europa.eu/priorities/sites/beta-political/files/5-presidents-report_en.pdf)

I've decided I really can't be bothered to read any more stuff.  Most of what I've read is lies and scaremongering - from both sides!

I know which way I'm voting and I'm not going to think about it any more.

I know what I know, now don't confuse me with facts! then................... ;D ;D ;D ;D

 ;D ;D ;D

If you like - although if I could be sure that ANY of what's being said was a fact, I might listen.........

Just go with gut reaction / instincts but don't waste your vote ;)

Ok, I'll take the hint!  :D

I have found it really interesting though especially reading stuff that is proudly presented on the EU website.  :o  Also, looking back at Cameron and Osborne welcoming the addition of Turkey to the EU. Oops is that still out there!  ???

Anyway, thanks for adding your own info and thoughts. It has all been very helpful. I'll shut up now until the 24th June when I am sure there will be a lot of further 'discussion'.

Cheers, JJ  :)

Not info as such but a lot of people are worried about fraud in the up coming referendum especially as some people not officially eligible to vote have been sent cards and are listed on the polling list they have at the polling station. This has supposedly been sorted out but it does make you wonder how many more 'mistakes' there are.

When you think about it, we have to show an ID for most things but for voting we don't even have to take the polling card, just say where we live. It's been known for voters to turn up to vote and find that their vote has already been used. If we had to show ID then this would be much less likely to happen.

Currently there is a petition on the Gvt website asking the Gvt to ensure IDs are needed. I thought some of you might be interested. Hopefully they will ensure it happens not just for this referendum but also for all future elections.
JJ  :)

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/130497 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/130497)

here is the best explanation i have seen so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w

i know how im voting and i will be using a sharpie marker  ;D

That was brilliant. I hadn't come across that but it says it all.


If you mean a felt tip then they are not allowed because they can bleed on to other ballot papers in the box. Not only might your vote be disallowed but it could make others spoiled as well. A black biro would be best.

Now here's an interesting "pause for thought" that was aired today. As this referendum will principally affect those younger than....me! how about excluding all those who voted in the last referendum,as they will be of a 'certain age', if you get my drift! and as such they are less likely to be around to blame ??? ??? ??? ??? ???, should it all go "pear shaped" later!! ;D ;D ;D................

Or praise if it goes right. ;D

There never was a previous referendum about joining the EU - the only referendum was many years ago and it was about joining the EEC which was simply a trade organisation.   We never got asked if we wanted to be part of the thing it became, the EU.

Erm, I beg to differ, we were not consulted on joining origionally, but we had the opportunity to leave at the last Referendum on this issue in 1975, which of course I was referring to.... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Just watched this..amusing and interesting ? ;)

At that time it was still the European Economic Community or EEC NOT the EU.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm)

Now that is just semantics, as I am sure you realise, its "What's in a name", go back a little further and it was called the European Coal and Steel Community! it still developed into the behemoth we see today, its just development..... ??? ??? ???

Personally I think there is a great difference between a trade organisation and a single state which is what their aim is now.  But that's just my opinion and it will influence how I vote.

Whilst I would agree that the federal nature of the EU's development is not strictly to my taste, the subject was ,I thought, on previous referenda, and on that score, well we indeed did have one in 1975! Here's a thought, and from someone, like many, still undecided, if we vote "out" we are....out, full stop. If we vote "in" however, we can do the democratic bit, at a later date, and vote via our own government, which ever colour that might be, on whether to remain in, or not, should the future shape of 'Europe' not appeal to us at that time in the future, so no finality..... ??? ???, worth considering?..Morrag

WE ARE THE ,,,little,,  PEOPLE, I,LL DO MY BEST TO VOTE  BUT IT WILL NOT MAKE ANY  DIFFERANCE TO ME  I WILL STILL BE    ,,,,,SCREWED,,  good job i,m  ending it all 

NO POINT IN CARRYING ON

I think that is very unlikely Morrag. I think this is going to be our only chance to choose. If Labour are our next Gvt, Corbyn, although a long time Eurosceptic, has gone against his views to cement his position as their leader. He couldn't then promise the UK another referendum. Cameron, if he stays on after the referendum, will not go through this experience again for love nor money. If he resigns as leader of the Tories they would not want to call an election and probably do a Thatcher/Major scenario. So if a pro EU person became leader then still no new referendum and even if an anti EU person was chosen they still wouldn't be allowed to. They would have to stay the leader and still be the leader at the end of the Tories' 5th year of office and win a general election.

By this time at lot will have happened in the EU. It is likely we will have had the Euro pushed on us. The European Security Mechanism will be in place which allows the EU to build up a stash of cash (rainy day money) from its members and all required sums (and we are talking massive sums of money) have to be deposited within 7 days. No argument. This is an ongoing mechanism and the EU and its big wigs are clearly stated to be exempt from being responsible for any of this money! In other words, even if all the money disappeared they cannot be held responsible. More countries are going to need bailing out. Do you really believe we will be exempt from contributing to that money. That is why the EU needs us, our money. More poor countries are going to be welcomed to the EU. The time period Cameron stated is very unlikely. It will be much sooner. Read other sources and I don't just mean LEAVE documents. More poor countries who the EU will give much more money to than they will contribute to the EU.

There are so many changes coming down the EU pipeline that even as a member we will be unable to halt them and as a key contributing member, we will bear the brunt.

So Morrag, how you vote is up to you but please don't base how you vote in the hope you will get the chance to vote again in another referendum in the near future or even ever.
JJ  :)

No you won't and yes there is. Put a small bet on leaving the EU. The odds are still on remain but I think we will vote out.  That would help you out and cheer you up.    :)

Well, once again, and as if to support the diversity of feeling here, I didn't mention another referendum in the future, what I said is that , possibly!! a vote to remain removes the very definite finality of an exit, as ANY future government can exercise its constitutional authority, and vote down or remove the country from really onerous Euro Legislation, should they so wish, that's called democracy, I believe! so, more thought perhaps, and a little less rhetoric maybe?.....Morrag

Finally, from me anyway, at my age I'm pretty sure that this will be the last referendum I shall be around to vote in, at least on this subject, and regarding Leave or Stay information, I believe neither where produced from political bias or colour, I use my own reasoning, based on quantifiable stats. ;) ;)...Morrag

My apologies if I misunderstood you Morrag.
JJ  :)

it will get harder and harder in the future to ever manage to vote out, the eu are grabbing power at anever increasing rate, better to vote out, and consider going back in at a later date when the eu is settled, peacefull and happy, (which will never happen)

I just read this on Facebook - no idea who wrote it as the person who posted it had copied it, but I think it's one of the simplest and best explanations I've seen.

yep, nail, head, hit it.
ok jay jay cheers i'll just use a biro then  ;)

To Jay Jay if you want a good laugh pop on to Youtube and watch some of Nigel Farage's E U speech's. There are quite a lot of them. I'm sure he does it to wind the Fascist left members of the council up. A lot of them used to be old school, hard line,card carrying Communists. But then discovered money. Worth a giggle.

To suggest that some people on here are not thinkers and are swayed by political bias.rhetoric and scaremongering and can't coherently reason things out for themselves, is to say the least "Shabby". Statistic are Statistics and will only tell you what the people who compiled them want you to know.

That was good BG, clearly written.

Baychimp, I have seen some of his speeches but my favourite is him questioning the appointment of Juncker as President of the European Commission. Farage certainly doesn't pull his punches.

Digger06, that is an alternative way to think about it but like you said, unlikely.

The debates on ITV should be interesting this week. Lets see if Cameron says the same thing regardless of what he was asked!  ???   :D

Finally, I know this referendum is quite divisive across the UK and I know politics is normally a subject we keep away from on MMM but I have to say in this instance I think it has been helpful to talk about it and point each other to helpful information. That said, I don't want any of us to fall out over it and I hope everyone will still be 'MMM mates' afterwards.   8)
JJ  :)

Jay Jay my favorite him welcoming President Schultz

I'll look it up.  :)

Just because somebody on here votes in or out wouldn't affect my feelings towards fellow monkies..I still think your all mad ( in a manky way of course ) and I think it's the best forum on the web..and we will all be fine ::)

Spot on, Stinkey!

Anyone else surprised that in one 24 hour period, over half a million people registered to vote ?

The government were apparently - they didn't give the website enough capacity so it crashed, now there's a big controversy about whether they should extend the deadline as it may be a close vote, and the missing votes might make a difference!

Correction - they HAVE extended it till midnight Thurday!

Yes, for after the Thursday debate on ITV when there will be more calls for young voters to register! I am sensing a theme here. I am all for the young voting, I've mentioned it before, but after all these months, 1.5 million decide to register in the last couple of hours! Perhaps they treated it like an assignment and convinced Cameron to give them an extension.   ::)   ;D

I don't think the deadline should have been extended. Otherwise rules will get changed all the while. Perhaps if they don't get the votes they want maybe they will let us vote twice just in case people want to change their mind. I mean for goodness sake the Gvt had to introduce emergency legislation to do it and when they get the go ahead they add on 2 days rather than the hour and a half it was down.

I'm thinking the remain camp are getting a bit worried as they are behind in the polls now. Or is that just cynicism on my part.   :-\
JJ  :)

Judging by what iv heard/seen. The younguns could well tip the balance for the remain crew..they all seem to be for mr Cameron because they all want to leave the uk for all these jobs abroad ?? To be honest part of me thinks you shouldn't be allowed to vote till your at least 30 and had some sort of life ? Jeez my stepdaughter hasn't got a clue about life let alone politics ? She's 18 on Friday ?

Allready talk of if its a close vote it could be classed as void due to the extension....
And your right, most young people Ive talked to have no idea of the pros and cons, and until last night werent intending to bother voting.

....I WILL BE WELL  GLAD  WHEN ITS ALL OVER  AND WE KNOW  EXACTLY  WHERE WE STAND  IN THIS ,,,,,MAD,,,MAD,, WORLD,,,

The daft thing is that all the old Politicians are urging the young to vote, because its their future that's at stake they say. But what the young don't seem to realize is that all the decrepit,old,stuck in their ways Politicians will still be running things in the same way. And will treat the youth of today,and tomorrow with the contempt that they always have. The future of these youngsters will be of no consequence to them, they will still follow the same Ideology's and Dogma's as before, The Europhiles will betray their trust in them. 

The young tend to be idealistic rather than realistic.

I remember when I was young..you old guys always bloody moaning ? ::)

 And old women! ;D

Old women clipped me round the ears..kept my mouth shut ::)

Well, that two hour debate was interesting :)  I found Andrea Leadsom to be very sincere in what she was saying.

Taped it so watched it later then a couple of Andrew Neil episodes including his Osborne interview. Only just finished.

You could say I was biased but I think the LEAVE team came over better. They were less screechy for one thing and they seemed very measured in what they said. Plus they didn't try to slag individuals on the remain side and tried to keep it on the referendum.

I had already heard Labour's Gisela Stuart talking about the referendum and I think I will be adding her to my 'People I like in the Labour Party' pile.  :) Andrea Leadsom was new to me but I think she did very well. She didn't get ruffled and she talked to me rather than do the 'I'm on camera bit' like the other Tory, Amber Rudd who I think has her own eyes set on no. 10! I don't like Nicola Sturgeon anyway and every time I see her I think of Janette Tough of the Krankies and expect her to say "Fan - Dabi - Dozi". She admits she is determined to have another independence referendum in Scotland but doesn't want us to be independent of the EU!  :P  As for Labour’s Angela Eagle's big mouth, it doesn't surprise me her main jobs have been lobbying and trade unions yet she kept saying we should thank the EU for all our work rights when in fact they are from good work done by trade unions of the past. I bet that got some traditional union members' blood boiling. As for trade unions, many have backed staying in the EU so that they gained concessions from the gvt in regards to 2016 Trade Union Bill.

Did we learn anything new? I don't think so. It is just going on and on with you say that we say this. If there are still people undecided then I think they will go with what they know and vote remain, as in to go with the devil you know.  From my point of view, it's what I know about the EU that frightens me the most!  :o

jayJay it's rather refreshing to hear your views ..afraid to say the women in my world do not have a clue ?  :'( and yes the krankies comes to mind.. :D

While working in my drive yesterday, in the blazing sun :D, a guy came up and introduced himself as our local MP. Seems he is in the remain camp and was doing the rounds drumming up support. I'm still very much on the fence, I deal with Europe on a part time basis and have in my lifetime worked in Europe for long periods of time. I was there when the wall came down and seen the fear the West had of the East invading their great lifestyle. It was chaos for a week then all cooled down. Anyway this MP had a very good argument for remaining, BUT, everything I questioned or asked about the exit was turned about to a positive for him ?? I ended up confused and dismayed that he didn't want to hear my view just enforce his own. I asked several neighbours and the same reaction. I don't think he won any support with his enforced attitude. Is this going to be a regular thing now, canvassing? because I haven't seen anyone for years out knocking on doors and pressing the flesh. As for Sturgeon?? she is a worry, power mad. 

Oh yes the Sturgeon is definitely a Krankie!  - and I never could stand the Krankies.

JAYJAY,...."You could say I am biased ;D.....", now that's a classic piece of understatement, to say the least :D...still, you said it..................

heres a beauty   
 http://www.thelocal.de/20160130/eu-backs-german-migrant-fuel-tax-idea

Well anyone who reads this thread knows my thoughts on the referendum now so I thought my opening line was fairly comedic. I'll add some ;D   ;D ;D next time, either that or stick to my day job!
JJ   :)

Well after reading the papers this morning, I dont think we need worry, Europe will be glad to see the back of us, after that patriotic display (again) by the so called football supporters. The ultimate Brexit warrior, disgusted and dismayed.

Absolutely agree. Lock the lot up and throw away their passports. Mind you, there is still a French Foreign Legion isn't there? They might fancy some English volunteers.  ;)

★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★
Clicked on this a second time (it was ok yesterday) and kept getting virus screen and click here messages. Obviously I didn't but everytime I tried to close the screen it popped up again even though I have pop ups disabled. Just a warning in case someone else has a problem.
★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★

That would be English and Russian football "supporters" then!................................. :( :( :( :( :(

Yes Morrag, but not our problem. We can leave them to Mr Putin to sort out.  :D

On another note, I've just seen this video of Cameron in 2009. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Only a minute and a bit to watch and you get to hear David Cameron telling us how bad the EU is!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jI-ApZA-GA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jI-ApZA-GA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Call me cynical if you want, but I feel that the whole subject is being finely orchestrated by the government to get the result they want. The government, will need to continue  to deal with the EU countries if we leave, so don't want to be seen to be part of the exit, lay the blame elsewhere so to speak. But in reality, they do want to leave! and so have put two campaign teams out to guide the country through the referendum.  Like a magician using suggestive manipulation,  both government teams are working together to get the close result they want ............ You think we have a choice?
I will still put my mark to leave........... Just in case ;) ;D ;D

It's all a conspiracy ;D

works fine on mine,works, and mobile and I have minimal virus protection, all the site is, is a big german newspaper, (the local.de) translated into English, I look at it as you seem to get news like this cencored in English papers...

Familiar? http://youtu.be/i-UbT0g9A8c

Well, it was quite a good, informative, item, only to be detracted from by the "Mr Bean" look-alike in the right hand chair! really, still that was compensated for, by the Secretary of State being interviewed, I'd vote for her, whatever the discussion!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D............Morrag

the do on the river Thames showed the remain camp up today I thought,
they (prick bob Geldof)came in a bigger boat, bigger sound system and proceeded to shout over the leave boats, not shouting any real statements or facts mind.... ;D, and throwing 2 fingers at the fishermen protesting about not being able to fish our OWN waters, nice......

I also noticed the lack of coverage on the telly when the fishermen started pumping water onto geldofs boat, lol....

I suppose that our fishing fleets demise would have nothing to do with Iceland declaring a 200 mile fishing limit in our deep sea fleets principle fishing areas then?...just a thought! and calling those of opposing sentiments crude names does little to any ones case, don't you think :o :o :o :o :o..Morrag

I had Mr geldof in my taxi twice, and I can honestly tell you,the guy is one of the TIGHTEST men iv met,and didn't stop moaning the whole journey  >:(

I used to like Geldof in the Boomtown Rats but after Live Aid he seemed to think that everything he spouted should be listened to. Like Bono, I think their egos are just too big and they aren't liked as much as they think they are. I think he will be surprised how many people think this stunt he pulled today showed both his ignorance and his disrespect for the plight of the fisherman. Obviously it was all done because of Farage but I think Geldof and his mates will not like the feedback they will get.

Geldof is on the next 'Question Time'. If Eddie Izzard wasn't bad enough the other week. I really don't know why they encourage these Champagne Socialists and politically correct Liberals. They are not really representative of the Common Man.

Well Mr Izard seemed to keep going on about Mr farages immigrant background ?  I'm of Irish decent ( dad ) my mum has welsh in her family ? But I consider myself ENGLISH ..I'm sure most of us don't mind people who move to the UK who work and mix among us and integrate into our society ..but when is enough enough ?
And looking at Mr Izard I see a person who isn't in the REAL world ?? :-\

The Icelandic 200 mile fishing zone did have an impact upon our fishing fleet after the last Cod war. But! that was 40 Bl--dy years ago long before the E U commissioners got there grubby little fingers on legislation. Now,if you catch the wrong sort of fish you have to throw it back.even if it is dead, smaller quotas, days that you have to stay in port tied up. And a Government that rigidly follows the rules. I have seen in France, in the Med the fishing boats come in and everything they have caught is landed from the biggest right down to the smallest tiddler,and then sold on the quayside and prepared and eaten in the local restaurants.Nobody is enforcing the rules in France.Imagine if you can, you have a job in a factory on piece work making goods, and the Management come along and say too you, you are making to many items so we are going to throw some of them away even though they are perfect, and you won't get paid for them. And also because of legislation from Brussels we don't want you to come to work for 4 months every year, this will seriously impact on your yearly income but so what, I'm doing all right Jack.

And that's exactly why quotas were introduced, while there were still some fish left. Regarding the enforcement of the rules, well that's for the government, in this case our government! to manage, and your manufacturing analogy is unrepresentative of the fishing situation, so yet another of the "that's a fact" brigade arguments! sorry, you need to try again, and the Icelandic situation may be old, but its still with us, and the damage to the Arctic and North Sea  fleets long done....Morrag

The manufacturing analogy is indicative of the crass laws that are forced upon people who have no recourse to change them. True the Icelandic situation is still with us, but as the fleet in relative terms is small by comparison to the 70's, and that they have diversified to catch more than just fish. Being allowed to make a decent living should be a basic right. As most of the catch is sold to one buyer Iceland Seafood International, an Icelandic company with bases in various European countries and North America it would be in their interest to let our lads fish more. While remaining in EEA and the EFTA Iceland have dropped their bid for EU membership because they want a referendum too.
As for the "that's a fact" brigade, You do seem to be one of those supercilious types. If its not my facts then you are wrong!
Another fact by a Pro Europe MEP this time. In an article, he wrote that he was sitting on a sub committee and they spent the whole day discussing whether a Twix is one portion or two, and what the minimum font size on a packet of chewing gum should be. This is a multi billion Euro swallowing Leviathan. You couldn't make this up, people wouldn't believe you.

I am starting to believe that this subject is getting a little too serious for this forum. :(
There is enough of it in the media.

I agree

Typical forum then ? Agree to differ,one mans opinion doesn't make him/her right ? Why bother getting heated up over something you cannot change ? 
Has anybody seen a bag full of holes ? Iv put it somewhere safe but can't find it now ? ;D

I think him (and bono) are pricks for a different reason, I am friends with a guy who set up lighting equipment for both bands, for their shows, I have seen videos on his phone of both hissy fitting because of the lighting being wrong, (despite it being to  the bands specifications), bono in particular delayed a charity do over 24 hours and cost thousands of pounds, Geldof smashed a sound deck in temper, it was nothing much to do with politics,( despite mr Geldof seen on camera calling the out crowd "w*nkers and throwing a few hand gestures which was pretty uncalled for, )


on a side note kylie Minogue is apparently the best person he has worked with, (better arse too)

Evenin' people.
I've had a couple of complaints about the language, (no, I don't read every single thread, so rely on you lot to self-police yourselves to a certain extent & on the whole, you do a good job :) ). I know it's an emotive subject & not the kind of stuff we normally discuss here, but just remember we're a family friendly site please.  ;)

That is all. Continue about your business.
-your glorious & magnanimous leader.  8)

Fight,fight?  Bundle,bundle ? ::)

You are of course right Mr M, I shall away and await the decision of the electorate on the 23rd, and like Xmas, may you all get what you wish for ;D ;D ;D ;D..Morrag

Well I'll repeat what I said nearly two weeks ago,

As for your comment Digger:

I think a lot of men and women agree with you about her derrière!
JJ   :)

Well she has a nice bottom,but Mrs Stinkey has her attributes too ? ::)

I really didn't think anyone would be tetchy about a few (small)swear words on a custom site, but there ya go,
besides, no ones falling out with anyone, its just a thread,
I wonder if staying in/out will have an impact on custom vehicles?
I hope not, but I still think theres something afoot there,

As long as we stay a small friendly bunch on here that suits me..I like the different views/outlooks and like seeing who's intellectual and articulate on here

I have a friend who's band backed Tina Turner,
He said she was a really nice Lady.

Iv not got any friends ? :'(

You have a lot of friends on this forum mate  ;)

Thank you kind sir ;)

Happy Independence Day ;D     Happy Euro Day ;D        Gotta get off this fence, tis killing me back ::) ::) ::)

yup, I'm quite happy , GB plates are back on the trike already, lol,
nice to see camerons thrown the teddy out and resigned, he works for Britain but if it doesn't go his way, he,s out,,
thought these folk worked for the people, not themselves?

Independence Day or Armageddon  ;)

joyous fraptious day  ;D happy independence day  ;D now we should hurry up and get out and start sorting ourselves out.
shame he didnt activate article 50 instead wimped out and is leaving it up to someone else.

And the next leader might not implement it so we would then be where?????
I for one have a lot to lose by the out vote as we have just moved here to Spain and bought a house, what happens when we get told we can't stay here permanently?? do I end up on a list for a council flat with no garage back in the UK and an expensive holiday home? won't be able to sell as there will be no one that wants to buy it for anything close to what we have paid.

Stix

surely if you live there you can get citizenship?

Very disappointed in Cameron (what's new). He was voted in on the promise of a referendum, stating that he would happily lead the country out of EU if that's what the electorate decide.
Well the electorate decided and now he's resigning.
WAT

Have to have been here for ten years and be fully integrated into Spanish life and be able to speak Spanish fluently, they aint like it is in the uk where you can wear a letterbox and only speak the language of your native country. Or you can marry a native Spanish lady, but think the wife might be a bit upset with that option.  ;D ;D

Stix

the Vienna treaty kicks in on that, so I think not much will happen to anyone that already is abroad., spain Bulgaria etc has a lot of cash coming in via tourism and migration, I doubt they would be anything but friendly....Bulgaria has already stated they will welcome the English, eu or not, and that little will change

There were English ex-pats living in Spain long before Spain joined the Eu so I don't expect it will change - after all, they want your money! (prolly want it even more when the EU isn't getting ours to dole out!)

SO WHERE DO WE STAND NOW ,, AND WHAT HAPPENS NEXT,,


i,v tried to ignore it all upto now  we all had our own reasons for how we each voted  , but should we now brace our selves for what comes next

Oh yes, brace yourself and pray  ;D You'll soon be working for the GREAT Britain we love.

well, that didn't take long: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36619342 Check this item out, it's a possible clue as to why the result was so, Morrag

yes it appears(around here) the young uns wanted in to keep easy cheap travel, (which might actually get cheaper for us if the eu dies)  I have learned from the younger ones round here most of the reasons they vote in, and they mostly seemed very short sighted, (imo)easy travel, and falsly thinking every state would look after them if they were jobless after moving to the eu mainland.really?
 the worlds a much bigger place than the eu, travel and jobs elsewhere are probably as good if not better tbh,  half the eu isn't really on the job scene, anything skilled in the eastern European block isn't worth it, unless you wanna be a low paid travel rep for 6 months....


which ever way we voted we were gonna take a hit, in with fuel taxes, extra payment,and the euro,
out with all the vindictive sh*t we are gonna have to deal with from the scorned eu and the in crowd,

to me if you voted, your opinion is respected , whether I disagree with your views or not, some of this screaming and crying going on atm from the remainers is a bit sad really, that petition is signed by 1 million people out of 60 mill, and technically wrong, some need to take a breath, and ride the bike/trike/girlfriend/boyfriend more

" your opinion is respected" have you read your own rhetoric, you're having a larf! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Play nicely children!

Better still, why don't we go back to talking about engines and cars and trikes and stuff?

NOW THERES AN IDEA ,,, :D :D

Might be an idea to lock this thread and let it fade away.

Stix

I was thinking just that.
A couple more days if you behave yourselves, or now if you don't.  ;)
 

I hadn't commented before because I was asleep most of Friday after being up for practically two days. I went to bed just after Cameron resigned. I understand he would not be the best person to deal with the EU but surely it needn't be the PM to do that. Oh well he's made his mind up. His wife looked sad but she was probably thinking about the new curtains she had just bought for number 10's living room!  ;D

I voted at 7am and then spent the following 11 hours sitting near the polling station with my LEAVE poster. Got lots of thumbs up and car toots from happy drivers. It was a really friendly day with loads of people really happy to have their chance to vote on the EU. Many of them came over to talk with me. Only one person I spoke to voted remain and she only voted that way because her middle aged son asked her to. Some elderly I think voted remain but I think that was because they were staunch Tories and Cameron is their leader. I would say the votes for out were from a very mixed bunch, across all ages. Many 30ish couples were voting with their children either before school or after school. They wanted their children to feel part of the process and understand why they were voting as they were.  8)

My funniest moment was when two young women pulled up by me and asked where the polling station was. I replied "Well if you are voting to leave it is over there [as I pointed to the polling station] but if you are voting to remain ..."
They looked at me for a few secs but when I laughed they realised I was winding them up. They went in and voted and as they came out they tooted and they were smiling and waving so they didn't hold it against me!  :)

It was great watching LEAVE prove the betting shops and pollsters wrong. I thought the ratio would be greater 60/40 to LEAVE but I do wonder if that last week and a bit, especially with the murder of Jo Cox and the way it was politicised by the remain side, saw some people stick with what they knew.

Now there's a petition asking for another referendum as the first one wasn't fair. Hmm I don't think they would be saying that if IN had won and I would say LEAVE was fighting the harder battle with all the scaremongering, the biased media and the £9million less they had to spend on their campaign.  :'( ::)

Oh well, it's over. Now for the real work of sorting out the 'divorce'.
JJ  :)

I think that is unfair Morrag. You could level that at me but I can't see anything that Digger has said that deserved that.

Anyway, like I said it is over.

Now is the time to unite as the fluffy mankies we usually are and I think Stix and Andy's suggestion is a good one.

By the way Stix, what Digger said about the Vienna Treaty is true but if you receive any sort of money from here you will take a hit until the currencies settle to what they were.

JJ  :)

it was prob about Geldof? as I said my views on him are mainly non political..
but,,,,,that's your opinion, and I respect that ;D ;D ;D
back to the vehicles now,  :)

I have an engine that is political, some go to the left and some go to the right. They get very heated at times, but unlike politicians, they join for a common cause. To drive us forward  ;)

Nothing personal folks, but to think it's all over! this ain't the '66 World Cup, this is only just starting, I'm afraid......and that really is my final thoughts on this thread anyway ??? ???...Morrag

I keep thinking of an old Chinese saying...

"A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step."

Oh! I think its very personal with you. But you are one of the old,idle rich,Baby Boomers, with a large pension that the young are blaming (all tarred with the same brush).

PANIC OVER FOLKS.

I have confirmation that the pound is still as strong as ever. It still released the trolley at Sainsburys exactly the same as it did last week!

 ;D ;D ;D

Very funny Bobbi.    ;D  ::)

Oh! I think its very personal with you. But you are one of the old, idle rich, Baby Boomers, with a large pension that the young are blaming (all tarred with the same brush

I realise I said I had finished, but couldn't let this go by :D...Eirstly, you don't know me, so those are assumptions that are untenable! but old, I would agree with, Idle...never, rich..I wish, 'large pension' as per previous answer! :(, 'blaming the young', I think you will find the opposite in that I believe, and have said so, that the older majority have let them down in so many ways, regarding their future...so, there you go.. still not personal, honest! ;D ;D..Morrag

I really think it's time this thread ended.   Recriminations (from/to either side) will get us nowhere.

Yep, time to call it a day. BUT just to make things perfectly clear...... I will NOT be standing for Prime Minister  ;D ;D or even the England Football coach job  >:(

Well Osborne did say there would be job losses, two  well paid English posts being advertised as we speak...

That's why I locked a similar thread on Britchopper before it went this far, loved the shopping trolley joke Bobbi  :D

 :) O.K, I think we're done here now.