ATOS

[kapri]

Bobbi, helping them get into work by closing the Remploy factories you mean? People who were given a sense of worth by being employed in a productive capacity that they could never achieve . Doesn't many any sense to me at all?

I agree the system is wrong but there is very little fraud involved , both Labour and Conservatives agree it is no more than 3% . In fact there are many benefits that go unclaimed by those fully entitled. As for the money wasted spent on buying in outside workers ( ATOS) when the system could be administered by many of those disabled and capable of work? Again many disabled are employed within the Public Sector which is being reduced and put to Private sector who simply don't want to employ the less capable.

The biggest recipients of 'benefits' are actually pensioners accounting for something like 80% of the total bill !!

[BikerGran]

Bobbi, helping them get into work by closing the Remploy factories you mean? People who were given a sense of worth by being employed in a productive capacity that they could never achieve . Doesn't many any sense to me at all?

Not at all, but the Remploy factories were mostly poorly managed, they could have been run on business lines, possibly even made a profit, and possibly have helped people into outside employment.  I know, my brother worked in one for a while and found it a very depressing experience - as if he'd been thrown on the scrapoheap, this is all you're good for.

I agree the system is wrong but there is very little fraud involved , both Labour and Conservatives agree it is no more than 3% . In fact there are many benefits that go unclaimed by those fully entitled. As for the money wasted spent on buying in outside workers ( ATOS) when the system could be administered by many of those disabled and in capable of work? Again many disabled are employed within the Public Sector which is being reduced and put to Private sector who simply don't want to employ the less capable.

Singing from the same hymn sheet here - instead of paying Atos to chuck people off benefits, put some of that money into the private esctor to help them to employ people who have extra needs to be able to do the job.  I've seen deaf, bland, and paraplegic people employed where I used to work, earning their pay and paying their taxes - but it took a lot of money to enable them to do their jobs.

And I was particularly thinking of someone I knew on a forum years ago who was desperate to get into work, thrilled when he given a place on a course to retrain him - and desperately depressed when it turned out the course was 60 miles away with no prospect of public transport and he couldn't drive there cos, oh yes, the course was for blind people....

The biggest recipients of 'benefits' are actually pensioners accounting for something like 80% of the total bill !! 

Perfectly true - and like the people with disabilities and ilnesses, we've paid into the system.  Of course it's a pity the government back in the day allowed the employers to raid the pension schemes of extra cash thus ensuring that many of us have much smaller private pensions than we might have had, otherwise we'd still be paying into the system!

When I said the government could help people back into work I mean those that are capable of it, most of whom would LOVE to be working but are unable to do so if they can't get the bit extra they need to get an adapted vehicle, or a special wheelchair, or whatever bit they need to give them a boost.

[tbone]

And where would you all be if you didnt live in this country? Try being disabled abroad and see how far you get.
I for one am pissed off with this thread and the constant moaning about how unfair it all is, yet other threads show just what can be achieved by those self same moaners.
I realise there is a large representation of disabled people here so maybe I will upset a few with my comments, tough!
Try being in my shoes,
white
middle aged
male
heterosexual
no dependants
mortgage
no benifit entitlements

I'm the one thats screwed.

Be grateful you have your health , it is beyond price.  Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder cos someones getting something you aren't? It comes from PAYING IN to a system, not a free gift. Before I became ill , and even after, I worked bloody hard to get what I have now and PAID INTO the scheme which I'm now drawing from. If I still had my health I'd still be doing that now , supporting those who were in need , and being grateful it wasn't me.

I wish i did have 100% of my health. I quit a job 8 years ago that I had been doing for 20 years because it had given me back problems.
Anyone with back problems will tell you that you are in constant pain. Sometimes mine is just a dull ache, other times its complete agony, not on the same scale as others, admittedly, but I do know what it is like to have constant pain and be in full time employment.
I have no issues in helping those that need it but those that do need it get far more than than rest of us. Give me a level playing field and I will be the first to give someone a head start.
As for being easily fooled, not at all.. the fella over the road from me spends all day working on vehicles in his drive, then grabs 2 walking sticks out his car to stagger up the high street and sign on...he aint fooling me. I could easily point out 4 or 5 other individuals doing similar things.
Or the parent who gives up a perfectly good job to claim carers allowance for looking after their own child who spends all day at school!

3% benefit fraud? While I don`t doubt that that`s the official figure given,
 a) 3% of how many claiments? could be a lot of people!
 b) statistics will only ever reflect the numbers investigated, caught and convicted. Maybe ATOS and the system are trying to give people an easy way out before it happens to them.

As for a chip on my shoulder? Yes and no, don`t ask for a head start and then get your mate to kick me where it hurts!
The rep for the latest `fad` knocks my door and promises me that I can get `whatever` for free!
Then we go through the check list...."oh your not on any benefits?".   "no".    "sorry, you don`t qualify"
Now i realize that this isn`t down to people on benefits, it`s down to companies who can claim 3 times the actual cost back off the government in grants given to help people on benefits, thereby exploiting them!

[tbone]

...
Try being in my shoes,
white
middle aged
male
heterosexual
no dependants
mortgage
no benifit entitlements

I'm the one thats screwed.

That's fair enough Tim. You are entitled to air your views. I detest the "lets see how long we can make this post go on for,shabba" thread and think it is a waste of space but some members enjoy it. I just ignore it. You are free to do the same with this thread.

I'm grateful I am not caught in a situation like in Syria, or have lost a loved one in the Malaysian aircrash but I am not and I haven't but it still doesn't stop me wishing that I haven't got the problems I have to deal with right here right now.

This thread has sparked dialogue over a situation that has impacted a number of Manky members and this has been an area where they have been able to discuss the issues and advise and support one another. Surely that is a part of what this site is about.

I also know from previous posts that you like to speak your mind. That's great too. I like that about you. I am the same. The nice thing is, that Mankies don't hold it against us and things carry on. On some sites you hear about hate campaigns starting over someone just stating their views.

As for "yet other threads show just what can be achieved by those self same moaners." part of your post, perhaps that is a discussion for another day.

JJ 

Hi JJ,
       I tend to ignore most things here that irritate or annoy me, the trouble is that I then end up not posting at all  .
Freedom of speech and expression are valuable assets and even if used correctly, will unfortunately upset someone at some point. I have attempted to use them correctly by not aiming my comments at any individual nor would I ever do so.
I think we are all agreed that this is a fantastic forum and part of the reason for that is that views can be aired and discussions had without malice from any party involved.
We may not all agree on all things all of the time, but what a boring world it would be if we did! 

[morrag]

Woah!!!!!!!.................surely this thread has now gone in a direction that Mr. M could not have forseen for this 2/3/4 wheeled forum, and whilst I wont prejudge his opinion, which I am sure will be forthcoming,and be of the "fluffy" or what variety! , so lets get back to what this forum is all about, and what it is very excellent at! and get out of this hole that's being dug, right. Mr T, from your many interesting contributions to the site, good on you and stick with it,to everyone, social commentary, nah, I think not, there are plenty of Forums dedicated to the subject, already. Finally, I am mindful of my old Dads advice when going to the local "Workies" as a teenager, for the first time..."Son, avoid all political and religious discussion, and you'll come back in one piece" so.................................. 8)Morrag

[kapri]

Tbone, link to official figures re fraud and overpayments recently released. On this one no mention of disabilty related.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/271140/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-2012-13_estimates-first-release.pdf

As a total £ figure  headlining grabbing figure , it's big enough... as a percentage of overall claimants it's very little.

Above all my personal feeling is that companies should be made to pay a living wage NOT a minimum wage. Don't forget that any of those who do work full time still don't earn enough to live on so claim benefits. This is effect is subsidising company profits by tax payers...surely that can't be correct?

It would go along way to correcting the inequalities in the system and make work it's own reward.

Who's responsible for companies wanting such vast profits and year on year increases ? Well, the shareholders who quite often, one or two steps removed turns out to be US via pension schemes investments !!:


It's a funny old world at times.

[tbone]

ok, no more politics!
It`s a shame we can`t start on religion though, I have some great theories on.......never mind 

[morrag]

Yeah, right!! Morrag

[hunter]

Woah!!!!!!!.................surely this thread has now gone in a direction that Mr. M could not have forseen for this 2/3/4 wheeled forum, and whilst I wont prejudge his opinion, which I am sure will be forthcoming,and be of the "fluffy" or what variety! , so lets get back to what this forum is all about, and what it is very excellent at! and get out of this hole that's being dug, right. Mr T, from your many interesting contributions to the site, good on you and stick with it,to everyone, social commentary, nah, I think not, there are plenty of Forums dedicated to the subject, already. Finally, I am mindful of my old Dads advice when going to the local "Workies" as a teenager, for the first time..."Son, avoid all political and religious discussion, and you'll come back in one piece" so.................................. 8)Morrag

General Discussion
Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board.

[morrag]

That maybe true, but............................... ..Morrag

[Manky Monkey]

Gentlemen. If you wish to discuss this further, kindly step outside -I'll hold your coats.

Sorry, only just checked this thread , after a nudge from another reader. I do try to keep an eye on most of the discussions here, but this one had slipped by me.
Obviously a subject that's always going to arouse strong opinions. You've all stated your sides of the argument very eloquently, but it seems we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
Now, play nice please -don't make me come up there. 

[morrag]

  y'see, he's always lurkin' about ....Morrag

[merv]

He had a nudge from another reader, someone snitched 

[hunter]

Teachers Pet.

[spanners]

and it will be all my fault  because i started the thread