May 17, 2024, 09:52:09 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Manky Monkey Motors Merchandise now available Cool Items at cool prices http://www.mankymonkeymotors.co.uk/merchandise.html
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Gallery Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 21 22 [23] 24 25 ... 174
  Print  
Author Topic: Manky's XS650 Yamaha  (Read 554155 times)
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #330 on: November 08, 2012, 12:02:23 PM »

It`s a good thing that the XS 650 is very much based on the BSA A65 Lightning so that boyer ignition will work fine. Not too sure but if you put a capacitor/battery eliminator into the system (we always used to use big blue ones sitting inside a spring for mounting) then it should make it easier to kickstart with that ignition setup, just kick it over a couple of times with the kill switch off but ignition on, that puts a charge into the capacitor which will be used to power the electronic ignition on the initial kick over (if I`m wrong i`m sure someone will correct me).  Wink Wink Wink Wink

I'm planning (sometime........) to fit a battery eliminator whilst running electronic ignition, so hopefully it'll work!! Should make the bike less bulky, and with no need to maintain (or buy another) battery ever again.


The unit I have is a Boyer (Power Box) for use with a 3 phase permanent magnet alternator and has a footprint of about 3 1/2” square (85/90mm square).

The XS650 has an excited field alternator fitted as standard, which means the magnetic field is generated by battery voltage instead of permanent magnets.  If you have a weak battery, you get a weak field, and weak spark, and hard starting, so I'm planning to swop the alternator at the same time – have a peer

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5536
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:07:42 PM by Tony oily bike » Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #331 on: November 08, 2012, 12:23:00 PM »

Nice easy to read wiring diagrams  Wink

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61


Just for interest, here's a pic of the replacement alternator
Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Manky Monkey
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 264
Posts: 55102



WWW
« Reply #332 on: November 08, 2012, 09:49:03 PM »

Hello Tony. Haven't seen you here for a while Sir. Good to have you back onboard.  Wink

Some lovely looking 'lectrickery there. You make it all sound so simple -when I look at wiring diagrams & looms, all I see is a mass of confusing spaghetti.
So- bearing in mind I'm putting this bike together on the cheap, using as many original, (cheap), parts as I can, & want it to be reliable enough for a Summer get-to-work bike if needed, just what components from my pile of bits do I need to squish into the box?
I'm happy to stay with the standard battery set-up & have already made a container for said Batt'. Is the twin lead coil I photographed O.K? Seperate rectifier & regulator, or is the finned jobbie a later combined unit? To help with laying components out, which unit connects to which? -ignition unit. fusebox, finned thingy, rectifier if needed, coil etc.
Logged

On the last freedom moped out of Nowhere City.
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #333 on: November 09, 2012, 02:00:45 PM »

Twin lead coil.
Not the original Yamaha fitting, (it should have 2 separate ones), but was on the bike when I got it. Will this be O.K or should I buy the proper jobbies? (available new from YamBits).

I'd keep this unit if you're gonna run the Boyer. From memory, both the Boyer and the Lucas prefer a single coil as opposed to twin-coil original set up. (single coil will be wasted spark, which should be no problem).
Suggest you mount the coil somewhere near the original position, thus keeping the HT side of things away from the relatively sensitive electronics.
Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #334 on: November 09, 2012, 02:06:33 PM »

Ignition unit. I know that's what it is cos it says so on it. What does this hook up to then? I've had several XSs before but have never understood vehicle electrics.
I'm a creator -I can build a vehicle around an engine, but when it comes to making it go, I tend to seek the help of those more mechanically minded than me.

If you're gonna run the Boyer (I would) this Yamaha electronic ignition pack is no longer required.

Looks like previous owner replaced the original Yamaha Transistor Controlled Ignition (TCI) with the slightly elderly Boyer system.

Just for info, TCI was stock only on the later SE/Specials as opposed to the spoked-wheeled models Roadsters which had points.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 03:09:06 PM by Tony oily bike » Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #335 on: November 09, 2012, 02:20:55 PM »

Rectifier/regulator units.
I know they take the AC current from the alternator & turn it into a steady 12 volt DC supply, losing any excess in heat, through the fins. So I plan to mount it under the electrics panel in the air flow.
One came with the bike, 2 were spares. No idea which is which -is there an easy way to test them?
I assume the round thing, bottom right, is the starter solenoid, which I don't need as I'm blanking off the starter motor & going with kickstart only.
What's the other unit, top left?

I tend to think the top left unit is a relay for the electric start, if it is, you don't need as you're using kick-start only. I could be wrong, as Tbone said it was the regulator, but as far as I know the regulator had the round widgget-thing attatched to it??  Undecided

Yep, bottom right is  starter solenoid, which you don't need.

The bigger units in the pic look like they're prob combined Rectifier/Regulators (you'll want one of these!) , but could poss be Rectifiers from early models.

The XS650s changed from a separate Rectifier (to change the AC from the alternator to DC) and Regulator (to control the newly generated DC voltage level) on the spoked-wheeled Roadsters, to a combined Rectifier/Regulator unit on the later cast-wheeled SE/Specials.

The combined unit was mounted on LHS below side panel - it has an 8 way connector with 7 wires.


The older separate rectifier mounted beneath battery carrier (full wave rectifier, 6 diodes) - I think it has 6 way connector.
The older separate regulator was electro-mechanical and mounted underneath LHS side panel - 3 way connector.


Pic of what I beleive to be an old style electromechanical regulator  Undecided

« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 02:31:16 PM by Tony oily bike » Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #336 on: November 09, 2012, 03:07:44 PM »

Rectifier/regulator units.
I know they take the AC current from the alternator & turn it into a steady 12 volt DC supply, losing any excess in heat, through the fins. So I plan to mount it under the electrics panel in the air flow.
One came with the bike, 2 were spares. No idea which is which -is there an easy way to test them?
I assume the round thing, bottom right, is the starter solenoid, which I don't need as I'm blanking off the starter motor & going with kickstart only.
What's the other unit, top left?

Have a look at the pics as they show a way of testing.
Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #337 on: November 09, 2012, 05:13:10 PM »

Hello Tony. Haven't seen you here for a while Sir. Good to have you back onboard.  Wink

Some lovely looking 'lectrickery there. You make it all sound so simple -when I look at wiring diagrams & looms, all I see is a mass of confusing spaghetti.
So- bearing in mind I'm putting this bike together on the cheap, using as many original, (cheap), parts as I can, & want it to be reliable enough for a Summer get-to-work bike if needed, just what components from my pile of bits do I need to squish into the box?
I'm happy to stay with the standard battery set-up & have already made a container for said Batt'. Is the twin lead coil I photographed O.K? Seperate rectifier & regulator, or is the finned jobbie a later combined unit? To help with laying components out, which unit connects to which? -ignition unit. fusebox, finned thingy, rectifier if needed, coil etc.

Wiring can be confusing, and I'm not great at it, but the best thing is to get your head around each separate 'bit' and what it does, then kinda join the dots of all the separate 'bits'.
So what are the main the bits: Power/battery, Ignition, lighting, charging, etc

Apologies to anyone (incl Sir Manky) if I make this very basic  Roll Eyes, but we may have some newbies reading this, so here goes......

Power/battery
The bike runs on 12v DC (hence the battery) and the bike would run/function quite happily for a while (so long as the battery had enough oomph) even if the alternator/rectifier/regulator system wasn't on the bike. In fact many competition bikes run this way.
The battery supplies the power for all the ignition, lighting etc to function

Electronic ignition system
The bikes needs sparks from the plugs to run the engine, and these have to be at the correct time with respect to the engine internals etc.
The ignition pack (Boyer/Lucas/Yamaha) is a little box-of-tricks that is powered by the 12v battery. At the same time, the ignition pack also feeds the coil(s) with 12v.

This ignition pack is connected to a sensor on the end of the cam, so when the cam is in the correct position (ie with respect to degrees away from Top Dead Centre of the piston) it sends a signal back to the ignition pack.
The ignition pack takes this signal and says 'its time to drop the 12v I'm constantly sending to the coil', which it does, this then allows the HT (high tension) from the coil to reach the plug, which jumps the plug-gap (old machines had a gap of around 25 thousands of an inch, about the thickness of a thumbnail), and hey presto, the engine fires.(in an ideal world)

The sensitive electronics of the ignition pack are best kept away from the HT cables. In fact, on the XS650, I've heard it said (I think by Lucas??) that the metal cover over the sensor/pick-up is replaced with a plastic unit.

A slight side topic - Coils have different ratings depending on their performance (a coil firing a single cylinder 4-stroke engine doing 4000rpm will be firing 1000 times a minute. If a single coil is on a twin-cylinder 4 stroke at the same revs it will be firing 2000 times a minute)
High performance coils take more power (partially dependant on the resistance of the primary coil, and hence the current supplied by the battery), and as such, all coils generate some heat, so they need to be suitably mounted to allow the heat to dissipate.
Its not uncommon for coils to degrade with age. When they get hot (from use and/or engine heat) they can give up the ghost.

So that's kinda one self-contained system.

Lighting/fuses/relays etc
Again this all runs on 12v DC, so there's a feed from the battery which then distributes itself to things like switches (for horn, headlights, indicators, brake lights, relays etc)

Depending on the bikes age depends on the sophistication of the fuse system. Older XS650s (say from early 1970s) have just one fuse, more modern XS650s (1980s) have a fuse box with fuses for specific functions.
The fuse, fed from the positive feed of the battery (one negative earth machines), is located before the component its protecting, and is designed to blow if too much current tries to flow in the circuit its protecting, thus preventing damage to specific components (and maybe even the wiring). There are different ratings (3A, 5A, 20A etc) so its no use protecting a circuit that will be damaged by 5 amps with a 10 amp fuse. Carrying some spares can be useful !

In general, all the above (and the ignition system) use relativity low current (measured in amps) and therefore do not require relays to be used. A 55 watt headlight uses 55W/12V amps =  less than 5 Amps, that's why most of a loom is made up of a certain size of wire (ie one that can take the required current without burning out)

If there's a requirement for more power, such as a starter motor which can be up to around 300 Amps, the use of a relay is required. The relay uses the standard size wiring to make a switch in a heavy-duty/high-current circuit, which runs using thicker cabling. Its still all 12v DC.
In order to power things like the starter motor, which take a lot of current, a suitably sized battery and related wiring is required.

Charging system
From the above, it can be seen that the 12 v DC battery has a fair bit to do, but it only has a finite capacity, which is where the ability to have a charging system comes in pretty handy (saves carrying loads of 12v DC batteries around!).

If we go back in time, pedal bikes and early motorbikes had a dynamo (remember them?) to produce electricity, and it just happened to be DC as well. To prevent over-voltage from the dynamo feeding the system and frying things like the battery (cos you pedalled really really quickly!), a voltage regulator was fitted, early ones being the famous 'Zener diode'. The regulator generated heat, so was mounted on a heat-sink, often out on the breeze to aid cooling.

One of the down sides of the dynamo was the efficiency, and the dynamo was superseded by the alternator.

Although hugely more efficient, the alternator made that confounded AC (alternating current) sort of electricity, so a rectifier (a converter of AC to DC, good band by the way!) had to be included as well as the regulator.
Early systems had one of each, newer system combined them into a single unit, so depending on the machine, you get what you're given. But the regulator always produces heat, hence its cooling fins, and therefore has to mounted such that the heat can dissipate.
Its not uncommon on modern machines for the alternator to have an in-built rectifier/regulator, so no separate boxes to wire into the loom, sweeter still – until something goes  AWOL.

There are no real restrictions for how far away the battery is from alternator etc (Jag XJS has its battery in the boot).

So bottom line of the charging system is that it generates AC, which in converted to DC, limited (regulated) so it doesn't fry things, and its output then goes to the battery which keeps it topped up, thus keeps everything supplied – or so the theory goes................

Breakdowns/failures
One of the biggest cause of breakdowns is 'electrical', and one of the most frequent reasons is the condition of the wires/connectors, whether the factory fitted snap-together sort just getting old and corroded, home made crimped-on connectors, or switch-gear contacts. (how many of us have pulled a connector apart by holding the wires??)
Modified bikes/cars tend to have the wiring following routes that are new, so tight bends and chaffing should be addressed.
HT leads/caps age and can breakdown.
Water/condensation had the knack of getting where you don't want it, so stuff like WD40 comes into its own.
Old style batteries are lead/acid and need to be maintained.
Newer batteries are 'maintenance free' (phew!)



With luck, that should have either completely confused anyone who read it, or maybe just made it a wee bit more understandable..................  Cheesy



A book worth considering in by a guy called Tony Tranter called Motorcycle Electrics, search Amazon or ebay, but he also did the current (pun!) version of the current Haynes shown in the pic
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 10:41:17 PM by Tony oily bike » Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Manky Monkey
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 264
Posts: 55102



WWW
« Reply #338 on: November 09, 2012, 07:33:42 PM »

Great info Tony. Didn't understand a word of it.  Tongue
So- little red Boyer box; finned reg/rec unit, (assuming that's what I've got), twin lead coil; fusebox, (just got a new repro one from YamBits).
Anything else?
Logged

On the last freedom moped out of Nowhere City.
terry t
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 35
Posts: 2475



« Reply #339 on: November 09, 2012, 08:55:10 PM »

It`s a good thing that the XS 650 is very much based on the BSA A65 Lightning so that boyer ignition will work fine. Not too sure but if you put a capacitor/battery eliminator into the system (we always used to use big blue ones sitting inside a spring for mounting) then it should make it easier to kickstart with that ignition setup, just kick it over a couple of times with the kill switch off but ignition on, that puts a charge into the capacitor which will be used to power the electronic ignition on the initial kick over (if I`m wrong i`m sure someone will correct me).  Wink Wink Wink Wink

I'm planning (sometime........) to fit a battery eliminator whilst running electronic ignition, so hopefully it'll work!! Should make the bike less bulky, and with no need to maintain (or buy another) battery ever again.


The unit I have is a Boyer (Power Box) for use with a 3 phase permanent magnet alternator and has a footprint of about 3 1/2” square (85/90mm square).

The XS650 has an excited field alternator fitted as standard, which means the magnetic field is generated by battery voltage instead of permanent magnets.  If you have a weak battery, you get a weak field, and weak spark, and hard starting, so I'm planning to swop the alternator at the same time – have a peer

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5536
I fitted one of those power boxes to my goldwing. done away with the regulator and rectifier. a lot better
Logged
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #340 on: November 09, 2012, 10:38:35 PM »

Great info Tony. Didn't understand a word of it.  Tongue
So- little red Boyer box; finned reg/rec unit, (assuming that's what I've got), twin lead coil; fusebox, (just got a new repro one from YamBits).
Anything else?

Didn't understand it??!!  Shocked  We needs to edyoukate you!!

Tend to find having a wiring loom/harness with all the connector blocks relevant to the boxes etc can be beneficial.........  Cheesy (lets them electron wotsits travel about)

With your battery box, it can be a good idea to have a large hole in the bottom of it, as this can help get the battery out if its a snug fit.

If you're going for indicators/flashers, you'll need a flasher unit. (I don't run indicators on mine)

Guessing you have all the relevant handlebar controls switches, lights, horn, brake switch along with an ignition switch?

Think that's about it............. at least for now.
Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Manky Monkey
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 264
Posts: 55102



WWW
« Reply #341 on: November 10, 2012, 04:47:13 PM »

Yup, just trying to figure out what needs to go in the 'leccy box.
So the red Boyer unit takes the place of the big black Yamaha box marked Ignition Unit? It's currently hanging off the engine by a couple of wires, so presumably can be relocated in the box.
Got to fit indicators cos I'm planning on putting it through the MSVA test -Blair's the only guy I know who's had a bike tested, so it'll be interesting to see what it involves. How many terminals on a bike flasher relay? (hoping to fit indicators that I can add rear facing warning light lenses to, so I can see them flashing, which should negate the need for a seperate warning light).
Logged

On the last freedom moped out of Nowhere City.
Tony oily bike
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 24
Posts: 4240



« Reply #342 on: November 10, 2012, 10:42:36 PM »

Yup, just trying to figure out what needs to go in the 'leccy box.
So the red Boyer unit takes the place of the big black Yamaha box marked Ignition Unit? It's currently hanging off the engine by a couple of wires, so presumably can be relocated in the box.
Got to fit indicators cos I'm planning on putting it through the MSVA test -Blair's the only guy I know who's had a bike tested, so it'll be interesting to see what it involves. How many terminals on a bike flasher relay? (hoping to fit indicators that I can add rear facing warning light lenses to, so I can see them flashing, which should negate the need for a separate warning light).

 
So the red Boyer unit takes the place of the big black Yamaha box marked Ignition Unit? YES
It's currently hanging off the engine by a couple of wires, so presumably can be relocated in the box. YES

How many terminals on a bike flasher relay? THREE
(hoping to fit indicators that I can add rear facing warning light lenses to, so I can see them flashing, which should negate the need for a separate warning light). Maybe think about some neat little LEDs or short piece of fibre optic ?


Examples of flasher relays in piccie
Logged

There's nowt as light as a hole, so add lightness.

Our lady of blessed acceleration, don't fail me now! - Elwood Blues

Nitro doesn't add power, it multiplies it! Bob Loux, running 10.07 secs @138mph on a 650 normally aspirated Triumph drag bike in 1965!

"Incontinence Hotline" - please hold.
Manky Monkey
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 264
Posts: 55102



WWW
« Reply #343 on: November 11, 2012, 08:55:05 AM »

Yup, did the fibre optic cable thing on a previous bike -an XS750 cafe racer type thingy. Warning lights mounted under the side panel with optic cables running up to tiny lenses mounted in holes in the bars. I bought the cable & lenses from Maplin Electronics. Might try that again.
Logged

On the last freedom moped out of Nowhere City.
Manky Monkey
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: 264
Posts: 55102



WWW
« Reply #344 on: November 11, 2012, 10:12:34 PM »

So these are the parts I need to fit in my electrics box?
Logged

On the last freedom moped out of Nowhere City.
Pages: 1 ... 21 22 [23] 24 25 ... 174
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!