Manky Monkey Motors

So As you all recall my water system probs with top of rad lower than the top of engine. ::)I went round in ever decreasing circles before, but didnt solve the problem.I tried a header tank system but this also wasnt succesful.So as someone suggested (Merv?) at the time, put the filler in the top hose.So....I have 2 options...firstly,'T' into the top hose with filler and pressure cap on top...OR...secondly, build a new thermostat housing with a vertical tube with pressure cap on top, and a 'T' just below it to connect the rad top hose to.
So any comments?
Thanks

Not cheap, (62 quid), but an inline filler like this?

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/radiator-caps-necks/moroso-radiator-hose-filler-neck-adaptor

Sort of, but the neck with the cap on needs to be higher.Can be bought alot cheaper on e bay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0&_nkw=Radiator+Hose+Filler+Neck+Adaptor&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Found this on eBay Rod, looking at some of the stuff on eBay, could you not take a wander around a scrap yard and pick up some bits and make your own.
Would it be to much trouble  just to bite the bullet and move the radiator up a bit

Rod these are long,With a T-piece attached it could work.
And leave the stat where it is.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suzuki-GT750-GT-750-1974-1976-Radiator-Coolant-Filler-Cap-/350823884351?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item51aebba63f

If the top hose is the highest point not sure why you say the cap needs to be even higher than the moroso item. If you go this way make sure the filler takes a standard cap. Some use a small cap like the Japanese bike ones but they all seem to be about 1.1bar pressure. Think you will also still need an expansion tank. Normally the Reliant rad allows for the expansion volume, but now this will always be full of coolant.

Thanks for the input guys its most appreciated.TBH I really dont know the best route to take .Im going to have another look at it tomorrow. The rad cant be raised.Im not going to mess about with header tanks again.

Rod , I would think more along the lines of just using a standard blank rad cap with the extension welded to it and ending in another rad top end to take a normal 7 lbs rad cap ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/56-mm-Dia-Raised-Radiator-filler-Neck-Adapter-no-overflow-/151230700437?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item23360d5b95
.
.

Think this could actually work.
If going this route I think you will need to blank off the existing overflow, have a new overflow at the new filler cap, and ensure that you have enough space in the extension tube, above the thermostat outlet level to allow for at least 4 per cent coolant volume change (120ml min). It would then act as your expansion zone.
A bleed screw fitted to the thermostat housing or preferably the top hose (highest point) would aid filling.
Just an idea :)

What old's says, also if you look down the page you can request what length you require.

Hmmm...extending the height of the filler neck was one of the ideas kapri suggested way back, but I wasnt keen due to space reqd for expansion.it would have to be quite tall, as it would not only have to make up the height difference of rad to eng, but also have to have expansion space.
Another idea I have is to blank off the rad cap and overflow, then fit a small tank with top hose from eng in one side and top hose to rad out the other with a 7lb rad cap on top with overflow in neck.If I recall right , I think a similar brass header tank was fitted on the old mk4 zodiacs.

I tried a completely sealed system before, it didnt work efficiently, and was a spaghetti junction of pipes and crap, looked apalling.

Yep, you are right, rectangular tank with mounts brazed to it, large inlet one end and outlet on the bottom I think. That would definitely give you enough expansion room. :)

Theres no space to extend the rad cap vertically.The rad might just fit in up tight to the w/pump pulley, but the rad will then be a lot HIGHER than the engine!Been staring at it for a couple of hours, seems like I may cut the frame to allow the rad to sit correctly.This isnt gonna be easy, and I will have to plan it carefully.The brakes, and wiring will all have be rerouted.Really cant be arsed TBH!

So ive just stripped down the rad and trial fitted it in a new position.It will just about fit , but means the top hose stub on the rad is now HIGHER THAN THE THERMOSTAT HOUSING  by about 2 or 3 inches. Comments?

Could be 23" and still not be a problem.
I assume you are fitting it inside the frame down tubes instead of out front.

I reckon that's a result. My dolomite sprint engined kit has the rad lower but has a big brass plug in the thermostat housing to fill the system and a small pipe that I have taken to a golf sealed system tank, works better then ever I could have expected. I flushed out the system with a central heating cleanser, safe for all materials, amazed at what came out after a week of hot running, flushed it and used central heating inhibitor in the system, its all very good now after 3 years of being in the system.

ON ...yes trying to fit it inside rails, but no go, as it fouls the alt gubbins!
Coppersmith...so the catch tank is fitted to the stub on the thermostat housing? Pipe goes to a container , which has small amount of fluid in it, so that pipe is dangling in the coolant?Im presuming as coolant expands it vents to container, then as it cools it pulls back in? Roughly how much lower is the rad to its 'normal' height? Thanks.
just been looking at golf tanks, they all seem to have a smaller pipe stub on top and a larger diam stub at bottom? Hows yours plumbed then?

Rod on a standard reliant rad setup the top of the rad (not the cap} is just about level with top of rocker cover

Rod this is how the racers do it.
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll259/spares_photos/IMAG0049_zps55c90a72.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/spares_photos/media/IMAG0049_zps55c90a72.jpg.html)
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll259/spares_photos/IMAG0048_zps2a4581ad.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/spares_photos/media/IMAG0048_zps2a4581ad.jpg.html)
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll259/spares_photos/IMAG0050_zps636d4476.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/spares_photos/media/IMAG0050_zps636d4476.jpg.html)

Sorry about the last pic,But you get the idea.

It's fitted to the rear of the motor in this one.
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll259/spares_photos/DSC_1589.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/spares_photos/media/DSC_1589.jpg.html)

Thanks, thats very interesting!. I remember seeing that second pic on here before.
The setup Coppersmith described sounds good. Ive just started on fitting a filler to the top hose(which is already partly 25mm stainless).I'll also 't' off from the fitting at the back of the head and put a  filler there as well.

sorry for the delay, someone wanted a cast iron lamp post welded after she reversed into it before her husband finds out. And a pretty woman always wins ::) Yes mine is simple, tapped the top of the thermostat with a 38 bsp plug screwed in, where the temp take off is there is also a tapping, 1/8 bsp ?, and a adapter to 10 mm pipe. this leads to the golf expansion vessel which I keep 1/4 full of fluid. I believe the blow off of this is quite high but dont remember what it is. This vessel is placed as high as the top hose. I always top up through the brass plug on the thermostat housing, though saying that it seems to stay OK now that I cleaned the system out and replaced every hose. I have tried to put up a picture but it says it to large and I'm struggling to get it any smaller. Once the son gets home from surfing if he is sober enough I'll get him on to it as a picture paints a .............etc. Anyway it works and works well, despite some spirited drives across Dartmoor it never boils, plus I fitted an electric fan with a stat operating it, it seems to warm up better. Good luck and I hope this is of some help.

Sounds good, but dont quite understand that, will have to wait for the pic.Which pipe goes where? Are there 2 pipes?

No, one pipe tapped into the housing that goes to the expansion vessel and that sort of breathes, or expands and contracts I suppose, Oh, plus the top hose to the rad of course.

Sorry, Im having a senior moment here!!!
So to recap...the top of rad is lower than the thermostat, you have the main top hose connected from thermostat to rad, main bottom hose from w/pump to rad., a smaller pipe from stathousing to bottle (is there a pipe stub on bottle then?) ? What other pipes?? (Whats "top hose to rad"?)
Sorry!

sorry, you got it spot on. there is only 1 hose to the expansion tank, yes the rad is 1" lower then the thermostat housing hence the tapped hole in top of thermostat housing which is 3/8 bsp with a brass plug to fill it initially. There is a blow off hose on the expansion tank the same as a rad cap filler would have. Do you know, I never think any more that I'd be glad to see that son of mine home and here I am wishing he was sat next to me right now, telling me how cr*p I am at computing ;D

I recognise everything youre saying there ..pmsl!
So wheres the b****y pic then? Lol

Rod. If you need some type of expansion tank making in stainless ....drop me a message and I can see what I can do... Not promising anything , but you never know....just send some dimensions and sketches.

Thanks,I'll keep it in mind.
I really dont know what the best thing is to do.leaving the rad where it is and adding header tanks and pipework is all very well, but in nearly all the accounts Ive read (locost site and elsewhere) there has been issues almost identical to the prev probs I had.Some accounts are uncannily similar!! Im very tempted to alter the frame to accomodate the rad in front of the engine at the height as per reliant intended.I certainly cant afford to b****x another engine with trial and error pipework etc.Im seriously thinking about slightly modding the frame down tubes to allow the rad to sit in between them.decisions, decisions!

So I decided the cheaper option if it all went wrong, would be to try modding the radiator itself.After cutting part of the side mounting plates away , I think with a bit of trimming of the corners of the bottom tank it may just fit at the correct height.VERY tight for space in every direction! Think I 'll get the radiator firm to mod the corners, as Im not having much luck soldering stuff lately, but he does it really quick, and makes it look so easy!
I also need to turn the stat housing through 90degrees. IE BOLT HOLES WONT LINE UP .Im sure this was done by somebody once on here.Was it ANDY who did it? Cant remember.

I cut the neck on a thermostat housing & had it TIG welded back in a different direction to clear a frame tube.

Im surprised it welded !
Im going to file the lugs down so that Im left with a flat rim round the outer edge, then cut a large 'washer' to sit on the rim and locate it with the existing bolt holes in the head.Must find out if the rad mod is do~able first before I modify anything else.Im considering doing the rad, but I know I'll get into probs with it! ::)

Yeah, the welder wasn't too impressed with the casting, but TIGgers are wonderful things.
I sleeved it with a length of tube to keep the 2 pieces straight & true. I guess you could do the same with Chemical Metal instead of welding?

I did think that as well. Iused it to glue a bleed tube spigot into the housing.Im not taking any chances with it coming adrift though. Im gonna sort this heating prob properly once and for all! ..well, as proper as a custom install can be anyway ;D

Engineering skill, patience & sheer bloody mindedness will fix it in the end mate.

I know less than nowt rod, but keep it simple is a good mantra

So I bit the bullet today and had a go at modding the rad myself.Not very pretty, but position wise I think it will work.The bottom pipe stub wants to be in the same position as the eng mount, fanbelt , and alt pulley! Going to have to lift the alt by about 10mm, arduous task! The lip on the top edge of the rads bottomtank clears the bottom crank pulley by about 10mm, so its very tight .The top of the rad is level with the top of the stat outlet.I made a ring to clamp the stat housing down, after I moved it through 90 degs, now facing outwards.I think I will cover the rad and all new and old bracketry with a stainless shroud.I'll do away with the bike fan and get a 9" slimline aftermarket one.It all appears to be going into place, but I bet I'll see a prob when I go back to it tomorrow!

Grab a photo of it when you do please -my Monkey brain's struggling to keep up with all this!

Whats the opinion on this idea please? Is an outlet in the bottom of the tank going to be too much work for the water pump to push the water round?
 The idea I had of adding a 90 bend to the existing bottom stub wont work as it will hit the chassis rail,so this is my last idea!
(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/Jamesons11/20140506_181717_zps906001a8.jpg)
This pic shows the size of the bend I want to use.The paper is depicting the rad corner.

(http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u410/Jamesons11/20140506_181800_zps304263dc.jpg)
 
 I need thoughts on this asap,as its driving me mad!
 
 Thanks
  Rod

Think I may have solved this (see other thread), but would still apreciate comments pls.
Rod

Today I blocked off the orig bottom outlet and fitted a new outlet on the end of the bottom tank with a 90 deg elbow facing upward.Got the rad mounted on brackets.Frame and bottom pulley clearances are TIGHT ! Carrying on at first light tomorrow.

Dedication, or obsession?!  :)

So  after 2 very long days getting all this rebuilt, recon engine etc etc, I managed to get it fired up today...woohooo!...NOT! Water leak from hole under waterpump shaft, ok not too bad, all other mods werent leaking, so I was pleased....until I saw the emulsified oil in the rad!!!!!
Im guessing headgasket, or POSSIBLY the seal to one of the liners? but everything is new, and Ive been extra careful prepping everything when I did the head.Torque settings are good etc .I really cant be doing this anymore!

when you done the alterations to the rad, by soldering the blank plate and the new spigot, did you flush the rad out with hot water to clear all the flux residue out

Are you sure the oil wasn't already in the rad?
Is there coolant in the sump?

No I didnt flush the rad out, but that small amount of flux( just brushed a skim of it on) cant be making this amount of gunge! Also the oil I put in was the halfords classic oil, a dark green colour.The gook is pale greeny/whitish, and theres a lot of it.Havent checked the sump yet, but I checked a random plug, and it wasnt contaminated.
My guesses are headgasket, but I cant imagine how, cos I was REALLY careful doing it. OR  liner has slipped/ not sealed correctly.
There was no oil in the rad before fitting it.
I just cant face pulling that engine again!

I cant see that it would show that quick, it may have been in the engine water way when they rebuilt it, run it up, then flush it out. pull the dip stick and see if there is any water trace there. also do a compression test if a liner has slipped it would low

It could be a liner not sealed correctly at its base.When I had probs with the last engine, I complained that there was a lot ofsealant and he said he would put less this time.Maybe he did.
this isnt just an oily film on the water, this is pale green water that is thick like oil, and feels slimy like oil.

have the rad pressure tested. do you have or know some one who has one of these,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301063316366?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

or make one, all you need is a rad cap, gauge, pump, or go back to the guy that built it

Are you using the old cylinder head and were the head and block checked for cracks and flatness?
A poor seal at the base of a liner will cause water in the oil but shouldn't mean oil in the water.

Just undone the sump plug, definitely oil and water mix! A lot of water.
Another annoying prob is the water pump is leaking out of the oil hole below the shaft.pump isnt very old, but I presume cos it was laying around for a few months the seal is buggered.Will try to fit a new seal.this is the second pump ive had go like this for no apparent reason.
so onwards (and upwards!) Going to get the whole trike up at table level before I do anything else.I cant face kneeling on the floor to work on it anymore.

Pulled the lump again today.Green gunge everywhere in oil and water jackets.Checked the edge of the head gasket all round,clean and dry, so nothing getting out of the edge of gasket.Then pulled the head off, no isolated area of the gasket looked suspect, none of the gasket was stuck down in any area, but the whole gasket, both sides covered with oil and water.I checked whether the new studs I fitted had plenty of thread and therefore the nuts werent bottoming out.I did use a different  torque wrench on this head, but even if that wasnt reading correctly, the head was still tightly down .The beads of red sealant on the perimeter of the head didnt appear squashed though?
Has anyone any ideas how I can get rid of all this oil water mix?(and im talking pale green emulsified looking oil, not just a bit of oil film on the water) Do you think I need to pull the crank etc out to clean it , or will  a couple of doses of flushing oil get It all out of the oilways etc?
What about the waterways?
At the moment the prob looks like headgasket, but how would I check the liner seals?
Is there a top and bottom to the gasket, or can it go either way up?

I would have thought a good flush out with engine and radiator flush will clear it
as for head gasket top and bottom it will only go one way this was talked about before, if you look at this one by the tappet slots
the outer cylinder has 3 holes one having a red mark around it, the other having 2 holes, I would have thought the red mark would be to the front

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171324563349?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Are the liners in the block far enough,Check with a straight edge.
If they arnt in deep enough they wont allow the head to squeeze the gasket.

The gasket I have will line up either way.

Sounds very much like the head gasket wasn't sealing. Gasket should be fitted one way only. They used to be marked "FRONT" and a small notch.
The liners should sit proud of the block but only by 0.002"-0.006", Any higher and this could prevent the gasket sealing around the water and oil ways. Or is the head warped?
Sorry but really the engine should be stripped and cleaned, but that's up to you.

Very good point hunter.i think the liners should be proud  by 4 thou? There is a slight step there, and the guy who fitted them said that they were spot on.

Yes I think I will strip the engine to clean it.i suppose its another visit to the machine shop to get it checked out.

Check with a good straight edge and feeler gauge.

Olds Snap.

The liners on the old engine dont appear to be protruding as much as they are on this latest engine.Difficult to measure them correctly, so will take both blocks to engine place tomorrow for measuring.
The headgasket doesnt have any specific markings for front/top.I fitted it the way the holes lined up best.Will report back.....
Rod

any update on this ???

Silly point but one someone I know was caught out on , you are torquing with the correct range of settings? My mate was struggling to seal a Rover and finally realised he was using a nm/m torque wrench not a lbs /ft.

Kev, no,I checked that one!
Latest update ..I took the engine back to engineer with the old engine.We compared the protrusion of the liners on both.The latest eng has the liners within limits, but the old block had almost no protrusion.He had checked the block face previously and it was good .apart from this preventing sealing, he reckoned that when he cleaned the block,the oilways in the latest one were badly blocked, and is wondering if there is corrosion causing an area to be porous.not too sure about that, but I do know as prev said, the headgasket was wet on both sides, with no area of dryness,and hadnt appeared to seal on anywhere but round the tops of the liners.But no oil/water had oozed out of the gap between block and head.I was extra careful to prep everything and keep everything spotless.Torqued everything perfectly.the h/gasket looks so untouched its tempting to reuse it!

What did the liner protrusions measure out at ?  If the builder just said "they are within limits" I would want to check. It's very easy with a set of feeler gauges.
It really does sound like the head wasn't pulling down fully, despite your careful torqueing.
Perhaps a head gasket from a different manufacturer is in order, if the copper bore ring is too thick, or not ductile enough to deform adequately.

Perhaps a head gasket from a different manufacturer is in order

Maybe you need to use a different brand of cornflakes packet?

Point taken.previously I had discarded head gaskets because the holes didnt align well enough, or they just didnt 'look right'.This one looked ok, and only needed minor opening of the stud holes to get a good fit .I also checked thaat there were no burrs round each gasket hole that would cause greater thickness!.Cant quite recall, but I think ifitted it with the copper ringed hole over the oil hole, a bit hazy on that tbh , havent got blocks here to check.
The liners need to be around 4thou proud, I think 6 is max u can get away with.Didnt measure the old block, but couldnt feel any NOTICEABLE step .There wasnt a head seal prob with the old block.
As I said before, I did use a different torque wrench for this head cos couldnt find the other one.Its a williams one, so in theory should  e ok, but even so, there wouldnt be such a hugeleakage, even if they were just done up 'tight'
I may try the new liners in the old block.The engine guy is at a loss what to do next! He couldnt believe it when i went back there.

Rod to check the liners, simply put a steel rule across the top of the liner and slip a feeler gauge between the rule and the block.

Yep, I would, but the blocks are at the engine place mate.

Just got a call the engine is ready for collection. Will find out exactly what he's found/repaired/redone etc when I pick it up.

Any more news on this,  I am sure there are others that are interested as well

I am

So am I. Hope Rod hasn't given up on this.

Thanks for replies....No not given up..posted a seperate thread re head gasket orientation,as I thought it would be useful to someone..

Rod, your persistence and doggedness do you much credit, me I'd have binned the bloody thing long ago,and is probably the reason I flogged my "piggy" engined trike bits ;D ;D ;D ;D.anyway, I really hope you prevail, whilst me, a mere mortal, will stick with motorcycle engineering from the Land of the Rising Sun!! :o :o :o :o :o, 'carpe diem' me old son, trusting your water will indeed eventually work!.......Morrag

Thanks Morrag. TBH Ive nearly given up a couple of times.I need to spend another £100 on the last few bits,oil,water pump etc(cos the old one ,although only done a few hundred miles is p*****g out coolant ::)) This money has been a mental block ,as I really want to get it back on the road ,but kinda dont want to find its all been a waste of time,money and effort. So the almost built engine has just been perched on the bench covered up.Today Ive bit the bullet ,ordered the water pump,and have been out there sorting stuff out.A big step ,cos I havent even wanted to look at the engine this last few months.Crazy I know!We'll see how it goes.

Good luck Rod. I know youve had a tough time with this one, hopefully this is the attempt that works.

Thanks Andy. If it doesnt work,I will have to give up and sell.