Suzuki SJ410 axle ratios ?

[darklancer]

Sorry One Armed Bandit but I cant answer these questions at the moment, simply because I dont know! In fact to be honest I dont even know what axle tubes are.... but at a guess they are the tubes running inside the axle from the diff to the wheels??

Im going to go and take some photos of the whole setup today and post them, I will try to get the whole of the drive system.

Thanx

[hunter]

Hi darklancer welcome to the forum,

I hope this will help.The information below is based on reliant diff ratios,But this method is used to calculate all diff ratios.

   
What the axle ratio means is that for a given number of turns of the propshaft, the wheels will turn once.

So the early diff, 3.545/1, needs 3.545 turns of the prop to turn the wheels once.

The later 3.23/1 axle needs 3.23 turns of the prop to turn the wheels once.

Dividing 100 by 3.545 gives you 28.2.

Dividing 100 by 3.23 gives you 30.96

That being how many turns of the wheel you get for 100 turns of the prop.

So the later axle gives you roughly 10% less revs for the same speed, or wind resistance and engine output permitting, 10% more speed for the same revs. So you get better miles to the gallon or you have a higher top speed. Since there ain't no such thing as a free lunch, it shouldn't suprise you to learn that the acceleration will suffer.

The 2.78/1 axle gets 35.97 turns of the wheels for 100 turns of the prop so it's turning even less revs for a given road speed, around 25% less than the early axle and 15% less than the 3.23.

Gearing is really about how FAR the vehicle travels for one turn of the crankshaft. Since we'retalking about back axles, it's as valid to think of it in terms of how far you go for one turn of the prop (and if you've got a 1/1 top gear and a car type drivetrain, it's the same thing in top gear).

Clearly if you fit taller rear wheels they travel further fin one revolution than smaller diameter wheels.

Using the early axle, with wheels that were 25% taller would give you around the same gearing as using the smaller wheels and the Rialto 2 axle.

Since the size of the wheels dicates the height of the axle (and has an effect on where you can put the engine and gearbox) then sorting out the wheels you're using and the final drive ratio BEFORE you build the frame, has a lot to reccomend it...

Stupidly low gearing (big number on the front of the ratio, small wheels) aimed at lots of acceleration can bite you in the ass, the number of gear changes required to reach a given speed can go up and there can be traction issues as well.

Stupidly high gearing (low number on the front of the ratio, tall wheels) again can bite you in the ass, with the engine unable to pull in top gear on the flat let alone a hill. Hill starts?

[darklancer]

OK gents, another question, I think the administrators are going to regret giving me membership.....

I have done a quick search on google to see if theres a way to confirm if the rear axle is from a Sj410 or 413 and can find... NOTHING!

Does anyone on here have any ideas?

Thanx

[terry t]

Hi Terry

Thanx for the response. I am going to have to see if theres a way to confirm if this axle is a 410 or 413, if its a 413 it should, I think, be ok as mouse is using a sierra diff with a ratio of 3.91 (very close to the 413 of 3.909) and he has no problems with speed or engine revs. The problem of course is how to confirm which one it is....

Hi the gl1200 final drive is different to the gl1000. gl1200 is 2.833 on the gl1000 is 3.4
i run a reliant B axle 2.73 with no problems. well  apart from over charging/carbs/timing/etc.but its a goldwing but its 33years old. but i like it.

[darklancer]

Hi Terry

Didnt know the differences between the GL1200 and the GL1000 were so large as they are, but then again why should I?

What about the GL1100? Is that the same as the 1200, I ask as its the 1100 I have.   

Thanx

[terry t]

Hi Terry

Didnt know the differences between the GL1200 and the GL1000 were so large as they are, but then again why should I?

What about the GL1100? Is that the same as the 1200, I ask as its the 1100 I have.   

Thanx

Sorry the gl1100 final drive is 80/81=3.091 and 82/84=3.100

[Manky Monkey]

The axle tubes are the outer tubes either side of the diff' housing -the bits your swing arm/hardtail frame clamps to. The inner bits that turn inside the tubes, with the wheels on the ends, are the drive shafts.
So your engine casing's cracked around one of the engine mounts? Wouldn't that suggest excessive engine vibration or frame tension issues, (the frame being welded up out of true so that it's under tension & trying to twist or pull itself apart), rather than the drive train to the rear wheels?

Don't worry! I'm the only admin here & we like a challenge! The whole point of the place is to help & encourage each other & pass on whatever shared knowledge we have to others. If we can get this sorted, it might well help someone else out in the future. 

[Cabman77]

Was the prop shaft balanced I wonder?? I`ve seen the damage an unbalanced one can do. Mostly they`re alright but if it`s gone on the bonk while welding or the plug end isn`t a good enough fit then that could cause this sort of damage.

[morrag]

Why don't you just count the turns pinion to I/2 shaft? that way you will be sure of its drive ratio, and it won't matter which axle you have!!  Morrag

[toad]

SJ 413 (SANTANA) thats the spanish built version of the sj413 diff will give you the right ratio as for the cracked engine mount that bike had crash bars fitted and was dropped at one point in its life.... as that side of the frame is removable to enable the motor to be removed it's a weak point and will flex and snap the mount off. I have two here now with the same problem.

[Manky Monkey]

There ya go -an answer to the engine damage problem. That's a start.

[darklancer]

OK Gents,

Still no pictures but they should be available today.

The report from Bruce states as follows:

In the first part my opinion is that the conversion to a trike was not responsible for the to the engine.

He then goes on to say:

Rear axle alignment, the prop shaft flanges are not parallel, little or no thrust clearance allowed on the prop shaft.
The donor axle is from a suzuki / Bedford rascal at 5-1 ratio is far to low should be at best 2.8-1.
The brake master cylinder internal bore is to large allowing 1-1 hydraulic ratio which has very  low braking power  this should be 14mm for the best performance.

I know the rear brake is not very efficient, it was one of the jobs that was on the back burner, maybe Bruce has found the reason! As you can see Bruce is saying that the rear axle has a 5-1 ratio but Im not sure if it is from a SJ410 or Sj413, Im trying to find out the differences so I can work it out!

More later

Thanx

[darklancer]

Ive arranged a meeting with Bruce tomorrow morning.

If anyone has anything they want to know pls let me know today and I will put it on the list of questions for tomorrow.

Thanx guys

[terry t]

Rear axle alignment, the prop shaft flanges are not parallel, little or no thrust clearance allowed on the prop shaft.
The donor axle is from a Suzuki / Bedford rascal at 5-1 ratio is far to low should be at best 2.8-1.

did he check the axle ratio or just looked and saw it was a Suzuki and assumed it is a 5.1
the only way to find out is rotate the wheel as mentioned earlier. or take the diff out and count the teeth

i thought he had already checked this over.  so whats he looking at tomorrow then.

[darklancer]

Sorry Terry but I cant answer this, I wasnt actually there when Bruce went down to check the Trike so I am relying on 3rd hand info. The discussion tomorrow is really to potentially plan a way forward (Ive sent you a PM on this), having had the problems I have had with the current shop my trike is in I am very twitchy about anyone else and want to make sure they know what theyre doing, I cant afford any more problems, the budget wont stand it!

I shall be asking him the question tomorrow about the axle and diff, he may have the knowledge to recognise the differences between an SJ410 and SJ413 unit, its difficult to talk to him on the phone as he is busy in his workshop.

Im guessing the prop issues and axle alignment are just a case of setting them up correctly,... but I may be wrong!!!